Daniel P. Barron

This goes against all human rationality.

Friday, December 14, 2018

GirlWithFaith:i I don't want to live this life anymore. But I also don't want to give up. Please pray for me.

Daniel: That's good, because suicide leads to hell.

PsychedliChileanStag: No, only sin that leads to hell is continuous rejection of God’s Holy Spirit- refusing salvation.

Daniel: There are plenty of sins you can do that lead to hell. See 1 Corinthians 6:7-11.ii And sure, you will only do these things if you are not saved. But it seems like you are saying that "God's Holy Spirit" will instruct people to kill themselves. Granted, God causes all things, even causing people to kill themselves, but such an act is hardly enduring until the end. Matthew 24:

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Blieve25:iii What school of theology did you twist to somehow reach these conclusions? This is Westboro Baptist Church tier.

God doesn't cause all things, He permits us free will. He doesn't cause wars, He doesn't cause tragedies and He doesn't cause natural disasters. He's not a hateful God, Jesus' sacrifice has paid the price already.

Daniel:

God doesn't cause all things, He permits us free will.

You speak against the Bible. Romans 11:

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

The Bible does not support the false free will doctrine:

The Lord says explicitly in regards to salvation that "it is not of him who wills" (Romans 9:16)iv nor "of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13).v

You go on to say more lies:

He doesn't cause wars, He doesn't cause tragedies and He doesn't cause natural disasters.

The Bible says He does all of these things. Exodus 15:

3 The Lord is a Man of war; The Lord is His name.

Isaiah 45:

7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

You say He is not hateful; the Bible says God is hateful:

The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. (Psalm 5:5-6)

Blieve25: Oh jeez, here we go.

God is the infinite creator of the Universe and the causation of the creation of everything- this is true. But, God also gave us rational minds. With these minds we are capable of logic and common sense. If I think to myself, "Hey, I'd like to buy a burger," and then pay for it with my money, I can give thanks to God that I've been allowed into a life that permits this, but God was not the immediate, micro-managing cause. This goes against all human rationality.

We indeed possess free will. Your verses regard salvation, not our free will on Earth to do what we want in the situations we are in. I would agree that we cannot do any works that merit us of Heaven, because God is the one responsible for that.

When I say that God doesn't cause wars, for example, I don't mean God 'cannot' cause wars, but God isn't immediately responsible for each and every war. Again, free will, not micromanagement. There are logical, founded reasons behind the conflicts going on to this day.

Lastly, God possesses righteous anger towards sin, but this does not mean hate; for hate is sin, and God is supposed to be free of sin. God would happily give a sinner His embrace if, immediately after sinning, the person was willing to repent of their sin.

Daniel:

This goes against all human rationality.

That it does. Isaiah 55:

8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

You should use scripture to back up your claims. So far all I see is lies.

Blieve25: If I was making a claim regarding scripture I would cite verses, but just as the Bible doesn't specifically mention every aspect of human life (And it shouldn't- solo scriptura is an incredibly flawed doctrine for obvious reasons), it's not necessary to cite a verse every single time I have a statement to make.

The verse you cited was speaking out against questioning God, which is not what I'm doing. I'm questioning your interpretation of God which goes against rational thought. God- if omnipotent and all-knowing- would not create a rational mind to the disadvantage of mankind.

Daniel: You are making a claim regarding scripture. I am making a scriptural argument and you are saying that I am wrong. I'm not speaking about your arguments that have nothing to do with the Bible, wherever you make them.

The verse you cited was speaking out against questioning God, which is not what I'm doing.

Yes you are! The Bible says one thing and you say the opposite, and your reason is that God's way doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't make rational sense to me either, which is exactly as the Bible says.

Tell me, are you an atheist? It's fine if you are. Better than being a false christian.

Blieve25: The Bible says one thing and I can interpret it to make sense. You're interpreting it as another way. You can't tell me in a debate I'm just speaking the opposite of what the Bible says when it's all up to personal interpretation on a particular verse with no central church authority, lol. God's way makes sense to me, it's just I don't believe God's way is the same way you believe it to be.

I'm not an atheist, but I am a Purgatorial Universalist. I believe Jesus died for all of us, both believers and non-believers. "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

Additionally, I affirm the complete wholeness of the truth in the following verse; "And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:31-39),vi which only further drives home my belief that Hell is not eternal, and everyone will, one day, be restored to God.

I understand my belief in a loving, merciful, compassionate and all-just God who would not create the human rationality and the immortal soul at a disadvantage to us is very incompatible with a God who, as you seemed to admit before, performed ways which seemed irrational. But here I stand, I cannot move from my interpretation of clear scripture. I hope someday you'll acknowledge that an omnipotent being wouldn't be so hateful towards His children.

Daniel: Indeed God loves everyone, and died for everyone. He even loves and died for the people who He will destroy forever in the lake of fire, which is most people. This seems irrational, and impossible. But nothing is impossible with God. Luke 1:

37 For with God nothing will be impossible.

You need to repent, or He will destroy you.

Blieve25: Not sure what I need to repent of, in this context, besides believing in a different interpretation of the Bible than you. But alrighty, God bless you too.

  1. Identifies as "New Believer."
  2. 1 Corinthians 6:
    7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

  3. Identifies as "Purgatorial Universalist."
  4. Romans 9:
    16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

  5. John 1:
    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

  6. This is true of the elect. It is not true of everyone else.

5 Responses

  1. [...] Daniel: Besides the heavens declaring the glory of God? (Psalm 97:6xi) Nothing; it doesn't make any sense. [...]

  2. [...] ↩Not that scripture needs to make sense, but this one is not so hard: Ephesians 5: 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. [...]

  3. [...] ↩This goes against all human rationality. ↩Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; [...]

  4. [...] like that. The Pope did a good job today. No, really. Got honest about this crises right. Nope. The Bible does not support the false free will doctrine. ↩Numbers 5: 11 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the children of Israel, [...]

Leave a Reply

Your words may be altered or altogether purged in accordance with my preference to abstain from publishing statements that may be unnecessarily offensive to other readers. Your criticism is welcome. Your name and website are optional. Some HTML tags are allowed.