James: Hey daniel I've never understood why christians dont need to be cirmusised
James: did Jesus mention at some point that they were exempt?
Daniel: we're not under the old covenant
James: Genesis 17:
14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”Daniel: can't break a covenant i'm not under
James: why include the old covenant in scripture?
James: if its not relevant
Daniel: it is relevant
Daniel: it was once something that was done
James: and where does it say that your not under the old covenant?
James: does having a new covenant override the old one?
James: or should they build off each other
Flotch: yes actually
Flotch: overrides some old laws that only applied to Jews
James: shouldn't you get both cirmusised and baptised?
Daniel: Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—Daniel: Matthew 26:
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.James: I understand that there is a new covenant but I don't understand where it says the old one is gone
James: if you go to college and take out student loans for it
James: and then get a masters and take out student loans for that
James: your student loans for college don't disappear because your getting a new loan
Daniel: Hebrews 8:
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.James: According to that covenant everyone would know the bible and the law
James: so there would be no need for the old covenant because no one would need punishment for breaking a commandment since no one would break a commandment
James: its not referring to an abolishment of the rules
James: just that no one will break them
Flotch: says right there man, old one is obsolete
James: if it was a full abolishment there's no reason to include any of the old rules in the bible
James: Yes, that's referring to a different covenant
Daniel: there was a time before the new covenant...
James: that's the end times Covenant
Flotch: maybe God hated jews and therefore made them circumcise themselves, doesn't mean that's expected of everyone now?
Daniel: Romans 3:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.James: Hebrews 8:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.James: So under this covenant none shall say "Know the Lord"
James: but they do
James: so we are literally not under that covenant
James: Now I'm not saying Christians don't have a new covenant, they obviously do. but the covenant referenced here in Hebrews refer to the end time covenant
James: so would be a separate thing
Daniel: all do know Godi
Alucardxft: Circumcision was a show of Israel being connected to God after Exodus. Not needed after but circumcision in their hearts. Christ is the savior of the Jews and He states a new Covenant with Him in the NT. Bread and wine, life is the new covenant. Drink and Eat in Him.
Daniel: circumcision was to set Israel apart from other nations
Alucardxft: @James Israel can be in end times like revelation. Don't know for sure.
Alucardxft: Yeah I think. But it's symbolic.
James: why aren't any of the OT laws followed though?
James: other then say the 10 commandments?
James: and if bread and wine is the new covenant it sounds somewhat gluttonous
Daniel: Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”Daniel: Galatians 3:
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),James: So are only laws repeated in the NT still valid?
James: if so does it mention that somewhere?
Daniel: things that God called an abomination in the OT are still an abomination
James: what about things called unclean?ii
Daniel: still unclean
James: so why do christians eat pork?
Daniel: because we're not made unclean by what we eat
Daniel: Israel was commanded to not eat these things so that they would be set apart from the other nations
Daniel: Romans 14:
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.James: But pigs are abominations
Daniel: so?
James: so why would you raise them?
Daniel: it's not wrong to eat them; God doesn't say it's abominable to eat them
James: why create more abominations
James: He says they are abominations
Daniel: where does it say that, btw?
Alucardxft: @James His bread and wine are life. We eat and drink life through Him.
Alucardxft: The OT laws represented what was good and bad plus we die if we try to follow them as works of the law since we aren't righteous ourselves. It is only grace through faith that we can establish the perfect law of grace. Plus, the commandments are repeated by Jesus on how to receive eternal life(not all, but many) and the Sabbath is talked about aswell.
James: If the OT represents good and bad, then at bare minimum it's commandments are the Lords preferences for our actions yes?
James: isn't better to live in a way that the Lord would prefer even if we are not forced too
Daniel: not all of it is His preference; a lot of it was to set Israel apart from the other nations
James: They were set apart by the fact they were following his preferences
James: otherwise what would the point be?
Daniel: where does it say that?
James: why would the Lord want to set a people apart just to set them a part?
James: what would the reason behind that be?
James: Where does it say laws against eating pig was to set jews apart?
James: What do you think of pillars in churches is that still banned too
Daniel: leviticus 11:
44 For I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 45 For I am the Lord who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.46 ‘This is the law of the animals and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth,
Daniel: @James have you seen our article on the law? http://atruechurch.info/lawofgod.html
James: I have not, I'll read it over thanks
James: how does that quote say it only applies to Jews?
Daniel: it says that he brought them out of Egypt to be their God. That's the Jews.
James: "This is the law of the animals and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth"
James: clearly hes talking to one group of people but he's not saying the law is only for them
James: even if he is declaring himself the Lord of the people hes talking too
Daniel: He's telling them how to be Holy (set apart)
James: Holy means closeness to him
James: everyone should strive to be holy
Daniel: it means set apart for Him
James: it only means that in the contexts that other people don't follow him
Daniel: He didn't tell the other nations to be Holy; He told the Jews
James: So can there be pillars in a church?
Daniel: i don't understand the question
James: Pillars are banned in the OT, I'm asking if they are allowed in Christianity
Daniel: i don't see why not
Daniel: i suppose there's something to say about modesty, and not adorning things extravagantly, being vain
James: Deuteronomy 16:
22 You shall not set up a sacred pillar, which the Lord your God hates.Daniel: there are certainly many false churches that pride themselves on having exceptionally beautiful buildings
Daniel: ah, a sacred pillar, like to worship?
James: Yeah
Daniel: i'd say that's still bad, worshiping false idols
James: ohhh did you think I meant a structural pillar?
Daniel: yes
James: If people have a cross in the front of the church is that a sin?
James: because that's a sacred pillar no?
Daniel: not necessarily; depends on what it's there for
Daniel: if it's there to be a god, to be worshiped or bowed down to, it's bad
James: Well even if its there to represent the Lord himself its still bad
Daniel: yes
Daniel: that's what i mean
James: same with swearing by a cross
James: Do you think the Lord does not make is preferences clear with the laws?
Daniel: i wouldn't call it preferences
Daniel: He expresses disgust with certain things and practices
James: So he still has disgust for those things yes?
Daniel: yes
James: Even if the new covenant allows people to do them?
Daniel: you're trying to say that eating those foods is an abomination to God, but it actually says they "will be an abomination to you"
James: wheres that line?
James: also this might be an issue with between modern English and old English
James: given grammar rules have changed over 400 years
James: so if your using the KJV for that kind of case a modern translation might be better
Daniel: i don't even see where it calls pigs an abomination, first of all
Daniel: but the other foods, it's in leviticus 11
Daniel: leviticus 11:
10 But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you.Daniel: leviticus 11:
13 ‘And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard,Daniel: leviticus 11:
20 ‘All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you.Daniel: things like pigs, it calls "unclean" which we know from NT that we aren't made unclean by what we eat anyway
James: See I interpret abomination to you to mean anyone who has read the bible and accepted it as truth
James: Which is because the Tanakh doesn't punish those ignorant of it
Darwin: Also, another key verse for this discussion is Romans 15:4.
"For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, . . . ."
Darwin: That's not what the verse is talking about.
"None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." Hebrews 8:11
That's not fulfilled yet. The fulfillment of that happens when "the fullness of the Gentiles" comes in (Romans 11:25)
"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:26-27)This appears to happen at the beginning of the great tribulation, the Day of the Lord, when
"every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen." Rev 1:7
During those 3 1/2 years, Israel is supernaturally protected and provided for (Rev 12:13-16)
Darwin: Also, on eating unclean meat, most don't realize certain animals were declared "unclean" BEFORE the law of Moses (Genesis 7:2. Yet, after the flood the Lord said they COULD eat them nonetheless.
"EVERY MOVING THING that lives shall be food for you. I have given you ALL THINGS, even as the green herbs." (Genesis 9:3)
Unclean animals were NOT forbidden to eat until the law of Moses.