Daniel P. Barron

The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Thursday, January 16, 2020 

A catholic asked how we know what books should be in the Bible.

CanadianCatholic: Hello Darwin. I have become increasingly interested in "ATrueChurch". I am currently a Roman Catholic believer. My first question is, why do you believe that the book of Jude should be included in the Bible? Thanks
Darwin: The same reason as the other books. It's God's Word.
CanadianCatholic: Right. But how do you know it is God's word is what I was asking
Darwin: It's self-evident. Just His Word is self-evident in the heavens (Psalm 19:1).
Scripture: Psalm 19:1 - New King James Version (NKJV)

The Perfect Revelation of the Lord

<1> The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Darwin: Psalm 19:2 i
CanadianCatholic: do you think that only the 66 book cannon is self evident and not any other kind of cannon?
Darwin: If it was God's Word, it would be self-evident just the same
Darwin: Men know it's His Word. John 1:9
Scripture: John 1:9 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<9> That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Darwin: But reject it. Romans 1:18-21
Scripture: Romans 1:18-21 - New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

<18> For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, <19> because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. <20> For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, <21> because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

CanadianCatholic: So how can you know that the cannon you believe in is the self evident one?
Darwin: Proverbs 2:1-6
Scripture: Proverbs 2:1-6 - New King James Version (NKJV)

The Value of Wisdom

<1> My son, if you receive my words, And treasure my commands within you, <2> So that you incline your ear to wisdom, And apply your heart to understanding; <3> Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding, <4> If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures; <5> Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God. <6> For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;

CanadianCatholic: I also had another question I wanted to touch on. What text type of the Bible do you accept? Mostly at least?
Darwin: What do you mean by text type?
CanadianCatholic: Like, the Bible survives in many manuscripts right... And not all of them agree. So there is a majority text type, which uses the readings found in most manuscripts. There is a received text, the manuscripts Erasmus compiles, and then there is the Alexandrian/critical text based on the earlier and more original readings that scholars have deduced. Which text type do you prefer, if any?
Darwin: That's mostly a NT question with the examples you used. Majority largely, but not solely.
CanadianCatholic: ok, so what about when there are scribal errors?
Darwin: That's a question based on an assumption
Darwin: You can't necessarily know there was an error
Darwin: "Error" by a part missing, perhaps. As in the genealogy of Genesis 11. ii Luke 3 iii covers a gap not found in Genesis 11, but preserved in the NT and LXx
CanadianCatholic: But i mean ones that were errors made by a scribe which are found in most and possibly all manuscripts?

CanadianCatholic: Close. Actually it is a scribal error in 1 kings 4:26

Scripture: 1 Kings 4:26 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<26> Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

Darwin: Most "errors" I've seen are assumed errors

CanadianCatholic: because [2 chronicles 9:25] says that he had four thousand and not forty thousand

Scripture: 2 Chronicles 9:25 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<25> Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king at Jerusalem.

Darwin: What's the error?
CanadianCatholic: Daniel, let me handle it
Darwin: That's a good example of an assumed error
Darwin: Nothing saying they can't both be true
CanadianCatholic: do you don't believe that 40 000 vs 4000 is a scribal error of adding an extra letter?
Darwin: No, I don't assume that
CanadianCatholic: so did Solomon have 4000 stalls or 40 000?
Darwin: I believe he had both
Darwin: How the chicken?
Darwin: Sorry, rooster
Darwin: How many times did the rooster crow?
Darwin: Mark twice, or Matthew once?
Darwin: Or scribal error?
CanadianCatholic: so you accept that both are true? And God intended to mention both in separate places?
Darwin: Yes iv
CanadianCatholic: I see, another question, why do you worship Yahweh's throne when Psalm 89:6 tells you to not compare anything to Yahweh?
Scripture: Psalm 89:6 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<6> For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,

Darwin: I'm not comparing anything
Darwin: I don't say He's compared to a throne
CanadianCatholic: Do you believe that Yahweh's throne is equal to Yahweh?
Darwin: And there shall be no more curse, but the throne . . . shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face,

Him, His refers to the Throne
CanadianCatholic: What verse is that?
Darwin: of God and of the lamb describes the Throne
Darwin: Revelation 22:3-4
Scripture: Revelation 22:3-4 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<3> And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. <4> They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.

CanadianCatholic: But don't you think that serving the throne of the lamb is allegorical for recognizing his divine kingship?
Darwin: No. " he who swears by heaven, swears by the Throne of God and by Him who sits on it." v
CanadianCatholic: But thrones are man made objects. Do you think that's a problem?
Darwin: Psalm 93:2
Scripture: Psalm 93:2 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<2> Your throne is established from of old; You are from everlasting.

Darwin: The Throne was not created
CanadianCatholic: so you don't believe scripture uses allegorical language?
Darwin: Allegory is mentioned in Galatians 4:24 using the Greek participle αλληγορουμενα (allêgoroumena) for "allegory" (KJV).
Scripture: Galatians 4:24 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<24> which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

CanadianCatholic: so you accept that the Bible has allegory in it?
Darwin: In other words, do I believe Galatians 4:24? Yes, I believe Galatians 4:24.
CanadianCatholic: But when do you believe it is allegorical?
Darwin: When the text determines it so
Darwin: E.g. 1 Peter 3:19-21
Scripture: 1 Peter 3:19-21 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<19> by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, <20> who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. <21> There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Darwin: Antitype - here allegorically equating the flood and the ark with being immersed (baptized)
Darwin: As in Galatians 4 with the old and new covenants
CanadianCatholic: so what do you think went wrong? Why have there been no true Christians from the 3rd century up to 20th century?
Darwin: That's a false statement. There have been true Christians. Romans 11:5
Scripture: Romans 11:5 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<5> Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Darwin: This present time in the context is the "times of the Gentiles"
Darwin: That we are presently in

Q2. Can you name any other true believers/teachers in history (outside of the Bible) since the early church (100 AD) until now?

No, and some are aghast that we would answer in such a way. They erroneously conclude, therefore, that we must be a cult. But, here again is another man-made standard by which fools judge (Matthew 7:1-2). Where in the Word of God does it say we should be able to name true believers of the past? Nowhere. For a more detailed response to this question, see our article, Believers Of The Past. vi

Scripture: Matthew 7:1-2 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

Judging Others
<1> "Judge not, that you be not judged. <2> For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Darwin: Read your words again and mine carefully. I don't say what you say
Darwin: Because I can't name them doesn't mean they didn't exist.
Darwin: Can you name someone who lives in Tristan da Cunha? If you can't, does that mean no one lives there?
CanadianCatholic: Oh. so you think there were people who believed like you b4 u?
Darwin: Since the first recorded believer, Abel
CanadianCatholic: What would change your mind?
Darwin: About what?
CanadianCatholic: about your views?
Darwin: The wrath of God via my unfaithfulness (Luke 8:18) and Satan (1 Peter 5:8).
Scripture: Luke 8:18 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<18> Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him."

Scripture: 1 Peter 5:8 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<8> Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Darwin: If something particular, the Word of God. Proverbs 15:31-33
Scripture: Proverbs 15:31-33 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<31> The ear that hears the rebukes of life
Will abide among the wise. <32> He who disdains instruction despises his own soul, But he who heeds rebuke gets understanding. <33> The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility.

CanadianCatholic: What's your view of Church history? What would Church history class look like if it was according to you?
Darwin: Throughout the past 25 years I have periodically taught church history (e.g. atruechurch.info/earlychurchfathers.html). I tell what man's church history says, and then give a Biblical perspective of it. For another example, besides the above link, you might want to see "He Is Holy Gods, footnote cx." vii And, for a Biblical history of believers of all time see atruechurch.info/believers.html This last link explains in more detail focusing particularly on the concept so many stumble over (the quote you gave out of our FAQ).
CanadianCatholic: How do you distinguish between things that are self-evident and the things that are not?
Darwin: Proverbs 2:6
Scripture: Proverbs 2:6 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<6> For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;

CanadianCatholic: have you ever been wrong when interpreting scripture?
Darwin: Of course, Proverbs 6:23. I have documented such at www.atruechurch.info/rejecttapes.html

In anticipation of your next likely question (the difference between the errors of a true believer and the errors of those who are false), please see our FAQ #12
Scripture: Proverbs 6:23 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<23> For the commandment is a lamp, And the law a light; Reproofs of instruction are the way of life,

  1. Psalm 19:

    2 Day unto day utters speech,
    And night unto night reveals knowledge.


  2. Genesis 11:

    10 This is the genealogy of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and begot Arphaxad two years after the flood. 11 After he begot Arphaxad, Shem lived five hundred years, and begot sons and daughters.

    12 Arphaxad lived thirty-five years, and begot Salah. 13 After he begot Salah, Arphaxad lived four hundred and three years, and begot sons and daughters.

    14 Salah lived thirty years, and begot Eber. 15 After he begot Eber, Salah lived four hundred and three years, and begot sons and daughters.

    16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and begot Peleg. 17 After he begot Peleg, Eber lived four hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters.

    18 Peleg lived thirty years, and begot Reu. 19 After he begot Reu, Peleg lived two hundred and nine years, and begot sons and daughters.

    20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and begot Serug. 21 After he begot Serug, Reu lived two hundred and seven years, and begot sons and daughters.

    22 Serug lived thirty years, and begot Nahor. 23 After he begot Nahor, Serug lived two hundred years, and begot sons and daughters.

    24 Nahor lived twenty-nine years, and begot Terah. 25 After he begot Terah, Nahor lived one hundred and nineteen years, and begot sons and daughters.

    26 Now Terah lived seventy years, and begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran.


  3. Luke 3:

    23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 27 the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


  4. See "Six Denials and Three Rooster Crows^
  5. Matthew 23:

    22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.


  6. See "Frequently Asked Questions^

  7. 21. Although, "Its origin is involved in obscurity, like that of the Apostle's Creed," (Schaff, p. 50) the Athanasian Creed historically is and was a Roman Catholic Creed. The first three lines of the Creed read,

    Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.

    Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    Liars play word games with this word "catholic" (as 1 Timothy 6:4 says they will do), but it nonetheless means and fits Catholic theology. The Creed itself uses the term "catholic faith" three times (lines 1, 3, & 44) and "catholic religion" once (line 20). Also, historically, Protestant faiths have used this Catholic Athanasian Creed as well. For example, see Creeds of Christendom, by Philip Schaff, Vol. 1, p. 49-54.

    Furthermore, according to Schaff, even though the name of the Creed comes from the supposed author, Athanasius, it actually was not written by him.

    Since the middle of the seventeenth century the Athanasian authorship has been abandoned by learned Catholics as well as Protestants. The evidence against it is conclusive. (Creeds of Christendom, by Philip Schaff, Vol. 1, p. 50)


10 Responses

  1. [...] This is a follow up to a previous conversation about the throne of God. [...]

  2. [...] It's self-evident. Everyone has known that this is true, but God causes most people to deny it. [...]

  3. [...] "I'm wondering, how do you even decide which books are cannonical?" Everyone knows. [...]

  4. [...] "Well I’ve thought about how people know that god is real we’ve never seen him. At least I haven’t." You have seen. [...]

  5. [...] "Why is your way the true way." Everyone knows the true way, but God causes most of them to deny it. [...]

  6. [...] Scripture says "the heavens declare the glory of God" and that this truth has been revealed to all so that they have no excuse. This includes the many people who have not heard of your church. They have heard the Gospel nonetheless. [...]

  7. [...] "You want to side with scripture? Sure, but why is that scripture relevant? On what basis? You need to justify putting those 66 books above any other written text in history. It has to be consistent with reality." It is self-evident. [...]

  8. [...] I have seen God in the sense that I have seen the heavens which declare His glory. [...]

  9. [...] I mean that it can be heard. All can hear it, the correct Word of God. That doesn't mean it's always heard in one particular language. You can hear it from the heavens alone. [...]

  10. [...] "No where in the New Testament is there any conversion or hint of it by nature alone. Nature points to a God." It points to the true God and all that is needed to be known in order to be saved. The heavens and all creation tell the truth of the Gospel. [...]

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