Daniel P. Barron

He who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

Friday, January 17, 2020 

This is a follow up to a previous conversation about the throne of God. The quoted questions are answered by Darwin Fish.

About your worship of the throne. I will try to use your hermaneutical approach to scripture, rather than the historical one. The first question is, how many thrones you worship? In the Bible, we encounter, at least three separate thrones of God. We encounter the throne of God the Father and the throne of Jesus, which are two separate thrones in Revelation 3:21. i Jesus says that he will let the conquered ones sit on His personal throne, in the same manner that the Father let Jesus sit on His personal throne. So we are dealing with the throne of the Father and the throne of the Son. Next, we see that heaven itself is another of God's thrones in Isaiah 66:1. ii We have the heaven, the throne of the Father, and the throne of Jesus. How many thrones do you worship?

About worshiping created things. Romans 1:25 iii condemns all who worship created things instead of the uncreated God. Colossians 1:16 iv makes it clear that all thrones, whether visible or invisible, were created by God. So how do you justify worshiping a created throne when Romans makes it clear that worshiping created things is an abomination?

Do you worship the man Jesus? Was He not created in Mary's womb?

No. Jesus existed forever. Jesus took on a human form. Jesus is uncreated. v

He wasn't created in Mary's womb? What do you call it then, the forming of His body in Mary's womb? The Throne has always been, like Jesus has always been.

Colossians 1:16 teaches that God created all thrones.

Jesus is in heaven. He was created? God didn't have a Throne, before Genesis 1:1? vi You need to read that verse in Revelation. The Father's Throne is Jesus' Throne. Since you are on this theme, maybe you didn't notice, but we worship Jerusalem. Jerusalem indeed was created, but has also has always been. "For this is God." vii

So do you violate Romans 1:25?

That applies to you too. Jesus was created in Mary's womb whether you want to believe it or not.

Did Jesus exist before he was born?

Yes, just as the Throne existed before and Jerusalem existed before this earth was made. God doesn't change. viii

Was the throne created by God?

Just as with Christ, in the uncreated kingdom, ix no. In this world, x yes.

But Colossians 1:16 says both visible and invisible, earthly and heavenly thrones were created by God.

Indeed. Do you think God had no Throne in His kingdom before the creation of the world?

Even the heavenly, invisible throne was literally created by God? Colossians 1:16... Isn't that what the verses says... Both heavenly and earthly, visible and invisible thrones were created by God. Do you have a different exegesis perhaps? Am I wrong in saying that Colossians 1 teaches that both heavenly and earthly, visible and invisible thrones were literally created by God?

Some things were not made, but have always been. God and His kingdom have always been.

Does the verse I cited teach that ALL thrones, whether heavenly or earthly, visible or invisible, were created by God?

It says "by Him all things were created." xi That doesn't make null and void Hebrews that reveals some things were not created. Melchizedek, for example, is a man who was never created - "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life." xii

  1. (RSV) Revelation 3:

    21 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.


  2. (RSV) Isaiah 66:

    1 Thus says the Lord: "Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool; what is the house which you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?


  3. (RSV) Romans 1:

    25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.


  4. (RSV) Colossians 1:

    16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.


  5. citing (RSV) John 1:

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


  6. Genesis 1:

    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


  7. Psalm 48:

    12 Walk about Zion,
    And go all around her.
    Count her towers;
    13 Mark well her bulwarks;
    Consider her palaces;
    That you may tell it to the generation following.
    14 For this is God,
    Our God forever and ever;
    He will be our guide
    Even to death.


  8. Hebrews 13:

    8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


  9. Hebrews 12:

    27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.


  10. the heavens ^
  11. John 1:

    3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.


  12. Hebrews 7:

    For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.


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