Daniel P. Barron

He who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

Friday, January 17, 2020

This is a follow up to a previous conversation about the throne of God.

CanadianCatholic: Hey. I had a question about you worshiping the throne. I will try to use your hermaneutical approach to scripture, rather than the historical one. So, the first question is, how many thrones you worship? In the Bible, we encounter, at least 3 separate thrones of God. We encounter the throne of God the Father and the throne of Jesus, which are 2 separate thrones in Revelation 3:21. Jesus says that he will let the conquered ones sit on His personal throne, in the same manner that the Father let Jesus sit on His personal throne. So we are dealing with the throne of the Father and the throne of the Son. Next, we see that heaven itself is another of God's thrones in Isaiah 66:1. So we have the heaven, the throne of the Father, and the throne of Jesus. How many thrones do you worship? This is my first question
Scripture: Revelation 3:21 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<21> He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Scripture: Isaiah 66:1 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

The Worship God Demands
<1> Thus says the Lord: "Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool; what is the house which you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?

CanadianCatholic: Now, my second question is, about worshiping created things. Romans 1:25 condemns all who worship created things instead of the uncreated God. Colossians 1:16 makes it clear that all thrones, whether visible or invisible, were created by God. So how do you justify worshiping a created throne when Romans makes it clear that worshiping created things is an abomination?
Scripture: Romans 1:25 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<25> because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

Scripture: Colossians 1:16 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<16> for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Darwin: Do you worship the man Jesus?
Darwin: Was He not created in Mary's womb?
CanadianCatholic: No. Jesus existed forever. Jesus took on a human form. Jesus is uncreated [John 1:1]
Scripture: John 1:1 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

The Word Became Flesh
<1> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Darwin: He wasn't created in Mary's womb? What do you call it then, the forming of His body in Mary's womb?
Darwin: The Throne has always been, like Jesus has always been
CanadianCatholic: Colossians 1:16 teaches that God created all thrones
Scripture: Colossians 1:16 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<16> for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Darwin: Jesus is in heaven. He was created?
Darwin: God didn't have a Throne, before Genesis 1:1?
Scripture: Genesis 1:1 - New King James Version (NKJV)

The History of Creation

<1> In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Darwin: By the way, you need to read that verse in Rev. The Father's Throne is Jesus' Throne
Darwin: Since you are on this theme, maybe you didn't notice, but we worship Jerusalem. Jerusalem indeed was created, but has also has always been. Psalm 48:12-14
Scripture: Psalm 48:12-14 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<12> Walk about Zion, And go all around her. Count her towers; <13> Mark well her bulwarks; Consider her palaces; That you may tell it to the generation following. <14> For this is God, Our God forever and ever; He will be our guideEven to death.

CanadianCatholic: So do you violate Romans 1:25?
Scripture: Romans 1:25 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<25> because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

Darwin: FOR THIS IS GOD
Darwin: OK, so that applies to you too. Jesus was created in Mary's womb whether you want to believe it or not
CanadianCatholic: Did Jesus exist before he was born?
Darwin: Yes, just as the Throne existed before and Jerusalem existed before this earth was made
Darwin: God doesn't change. Hebrews 13:8
Scripture: Hebrews 13:8 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<8> Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

CanadianCatholic: Was the throne created by God?
Darwin: Just as with Christ, in the uncreated kingdom (Heb 12:27-28), no. In this world (the heavens), yes.
Scripture: Hebrews 12:27-28 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<27> Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. <28> Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

CanadianCatholic: But Colossians 1:16 says both visible and invisible, earthly and heavenly thrones were created by God
Darwin: Indeed
Darwin: Do think God had no Throne in His kingdom before the creation of the world?
CanadianCatholic: So then even the heavenly, invisible throne was literally created by God? Colossians 1:16... Isn't that what the verses says... Both heavenly and earthly, visible and invisible thrones were created by God
CanadianCatholic: Do you have a different exegesis perhaps? Am I wrong in saying that 1 Colossians teaches that both heavenly and earthly, visible and invisible thrones were literally created by God?
Darwin: John 1:3
Scripture: John 1:3 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<3> All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Darwin: Some things were not made, but have always been. God and His kingdom have always been
CanadianCatholic: Does the verse I cited teach that ALL thrones, whether heavenly or earthly, visible or invisible, were created by God?
Darwin: It says "by Him all things were created." That doesn't make null and void Hebrews that reveals some things were not created.
Darwin: Melchizedek, for example, is a man who was never created - "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life"i

  1. Hebrews 7:
    For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

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