Daniel P. Barron

You will know them by their fruits.

Friday, January 17, 2020 

NXiL:i This channel is for conversations of a spiritual or religious nature. Please be respectful of other opinions and beliefs and remember that God is watching :eyes: ... also mods are watching :EyeShake1:
pixel says gay rights: Oh cool another channel to muuuuute
Deleted User: I don't fear mods! Come get me!
pixel says gay rights: 3D text
the ghost of Mef: graphic design is my passion
pixel says gay rights: a teacher of mine unironically used this in a powerpoint
pixel says gay rights: like
pixel says gay rights: how did they even find it?
Daniel: most people who think they are saved are actually not saved and are going to hell
the ghost of Mef: Spicy. Care to elaborate?
Daniel: not everyone who says "Lord Lord" will enter the kingdom of heavenii
Daniel: Christ is the whole Bible. You cannot add to Him or leave parts out of Him.
the ghost of Mef: There definitely is a lot of apologetics and picking and discarding different parts of the Bible, from different versions of the Bible, etc.
NXiL:

“If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9-13‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Many people cry out to God (Lord) but don’t recognize the love and sacrifice of Jesus. I think that is what the Bible continually points back to. It is not about you and your ability to follow rules and regulations, nor is it about what religious affiliation you keep, it all hinges on who Jesus is. There are many who put their faith in a life well lived or church affiliation. But it is all about recognizing that Jesus makes a relationship with God possible. Jesus was the pinnacle of human history and God’s purposes fulfilled throughout all scripture. That’s my thought on the issue anyway.
the ghost of Mef: That’s kinda how I always viewed it too. I get that a lot of people don’t see it that way, and there are certainly ways to apply this mindset hypocritically, but as long as your actions connect back to the same overarching themes of love, I think you’re in pretty good shape
DouSoDou: You gais such smart, respectful people. :heart:
Daniel: @NXiL Christ is the Word of God aka the whole Bible. (John 1:1;iii Matthew 4:4iv)
Daniel: To "openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe" is to openly declare that the Bible is Lord and believe. You cannot believe in Jesus if you don't believe the whole Bible. That doesn't mean adhering to all of the old testament law, as believers are not under the law. (Romans 10:4;v Galatians 5:18vi)
Daniel:

nor is it about what religious affiliation you keep

Yes it is. Two people cannot "agree to disagree" on Scripture and both be saved.vii
Daniel: Romans 15:

5 Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, 6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NXiL: There are many things in scripture that can not be known 100% by todays knowledge of history. by saying that 100% agreement is a requirement of faith seem a bit far fetched. Especially when early followers didn't see eye to eye on all things, but this wasn't calling to question their salvation, just their doctrine. The two are somewhat separated as they saw it. Correction is good, but when it comes to the matter of salvation, the message seems to be consistently clear as it relates to Jesus.

It's a bit conflated to assume that you can replace every name of Jesus with the word Bible simply because of the metaphoric description of Jesus being there all along in history. That's a bit of a slippery slope to then apply that to a belief in Jesus requires a particular view on say, the book of Ruth, which is considered scripture to many Christians today, but was considered just historical record for the Jews. The distinction being, it's in the bible because we see how that story relates to Christ as both lineage and concepts of redemption, but the narrator didn't even mention God once in the book. It also implies that the bible is a thing engraved with only one singular purpose and understanding. But the bible is a living breathing message that continues to teach and inspire generation to generation. With a message very personal to the reader, because it reflects a very personal God who did not just leave a message on tablets, but gave us a spirit to interpret and understand.
NXiL: I am skeptical of any teacher who says they have the only true faith and message and all others are heresy. You are free to believe that, but the bible points out many individuals who were saved and proclaimed to receive salvation, not through a deep understanding of biblical history, but on a simple acceptance, belief and confession of the redeeming act of Christ and his sacrifice in love. There is no other requirement laid out in such simple and easy to share terms. Which is core to why Christianity spread so powerfully among the gentiles and throughout the world. And in such the early Christian leaders such as Paul, spent a great deal of time helping solve misunderstandings about the Christian faith in early churches, but usually on the side of how simple faith and forgiveness was and away from those saying that more was "required".
Daniel:

can not be known 100% by todays knowledge of history.

You don't have to know it all; you have to believe it all. And take extra-biblical history with a grain of salt.

early followers didn't see eye to eye on all things

They sorted it out or else parted ways.

this wasn't calling to question their salvation

Yes it was; that's why Paul went out of his way to correct them. (Colossians 2:8viii) Scripture is for correction. (2 Timothy 3:16ix) We are to contend for the faith. (Jude 1:3x)

that to a belief in Jesus requires a particular view on say, the book of Ruth

Yes, that's what it means.

I am skeptical of any teacher who says they have the only true faith and message and all others are heresy.

Then you are skeptical of Paul and Peter and even Christ.xi

belief and confession of the redeeming act of Christ

If you don't believe the whole Bible, you don't believe in the real Christ. You are making a false christ that has no saving power.
Daniel: Matthew 7:

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

NXiL: Just to be clear, I do believe in the whole bible. But I'm cautious of those who contort it for their own benefit and then claim that those who don't believe in their interpretations are not truly saved. I think that would be a difference between believing the entire word of God through scripture and just seeing everything the same way that say, you do. Which I can kind of tell that we don't see eye to eye on some things, but to me, that doesn't negate your ability to receive salvation through the grace of Christ.
Daniel: If you don't see it the way I do, and you "agree to disagree with me" then you aren't saved
NXiL: Makes me glad that it's not really up to you and how you see things.
Daniel: It's God who chooses who believes, and those He chooses will agree with each other, or else He is a liar.
NXiL: So which is better, Coffee or Tea?
NXiL: we better agree, our salvation depends on it.
NXiL: The problem with this line of thinking is as follows, and you would probably benefit in a class on logic and critical thinking to avoid falling into it.

"I like to eat chocolate." AND "This poop has chocolate in it." Does not equate to "I like to eat poop."
NXiL: Which, after reading your posts and checking out your 1980s website, I feel like you seem to do often with scripture. Mixing and matching structure to get it to say things that just are not there. It's a real danger and tends to lead to cult like belief structures that all hinge on a thought that is derived from mixed statements pulled from context and applied as bold statements of fact.
Daniel: coffee or tea is a “doubtful thing” (Romans 14:1xii)
Daniel:

some of the ways in which the modern "Christian" world judges and marks a cult is actually "cultic" itself (i.e. against the word of God).xiii

スタルキッド: tea
pixel says gay rights: here
Daniel: Scripture says homosexuals go to hellxiv
DouSoDou: Scripture also says not to eat shellfish.
DouSoDou: Leviticus 11:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.

Daniel: believers are not under the law
the ghost of Mef: I take issue with a god who would create homosexuals in his image and likeness then send them to hell for it.
Daniel: He creates them for destruction, to show His wrathxv
Valra - Open to DMs!: I really can't tell if Daniel is being satirical
the ghost of Mef: @Valra - Open to DMs! He is not
Valra - Open to DMs!: Man, I never knew I was capable of destruction
the ghost of Mef: (though correct me if i'm wrong, Daniel)
the ghost of Mef: Use your powers wisely my friend
Valra - Open to DMs!: Who wanna go do some destruction?
the ghost of Mef: :woman_raising_hand: :nail_care:
Valra - Open to DMs!: Tho, since I'm bi, maybe a special ability comes with the destruction lmao
the ghost of Mef: True, does it mean half the destruction or something far more cool?
the ghost of Mef: oh my GOD I just realized
the ghost of Mef: BI-ble
Valra - Open to DMs!: I like to believe something far more cool
Valra - Open to DMs!: Also why I prefer the other Okie [chat],xvi very LGBT friendly over there
Valra - Open to DMs!: Plus just way way more active
the ghost of Mef: I should join that one too
DouSoDou: :joy:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7868889/amp/Driver-possessed-devil-smashes-car-Spanish-church.html

Mail Online
Driver 'possessed by the devil' smashes his car into a Spanish church
The man forced his Jeep through the door of the church in Sonseca, Spain, in the early hours of yesterday morning (pictured: the vehicle parked in the aisle).

jeff76: Gta action
DouSoDou: For real. I was dying over the description of the incident. People are crazy!
jeff76: If I was going to do it I would have waited for churh to be in session lol
DouSoDou: Ohhhhh snap. :rofl:
DouSoDou: Well, they wouldn't question whether you were possessed or not.
CaNTwAitTtoSeeWeEn: i gave that true church site a look over, i am not a follower of any god but myself, i believe we are our own gods. i do like to research into different religions. in full fairness of the review of the site, it made a couple good tries to explaining things but would contradict everything in the next sentence or paragraph.
CaNTwAitTtoSeeWeEn: and @Valra - Open to DMs! to say the other server is more friendly to the LGBT community is an unfair statement. everyone here has been accepted the same. when someone is being [yucky] we call them out. straight up had to start blocking people from the other server, never have blocked a person from here. to each they own. carry on.
Valra - Open to DMs!: @CaNTwAitTtoSeeWeEn It isn't an unfair statement, it's just the general atmosphere as a whole
CaNTwAitTtoSeeWeEn: what general atmosphere?
Daniel:

the ghost of Mef: (though correct me if i'm wrong, Daniel)

You're not wrong. I'm serious.

the ghost of Mef: True, does it mean half the destruction or something far more cool?

No. Bisexuals are homosexuals.

CaNTwAitTtoSeeWeEn: i gave that true church site a look over, i am not a follower of any god but myself, i believe we are our own gods.

Scripture says that we are all gods,xvii but there is only one God who saves and that is Christ.xviii
NXiL: @Daniel do you love homosexuals?
Daniel: yesxix
NXiL: Just wanted to clarify that point.
CaNTwAitTtoSeeWeEn: btw, i got asked to leave a church group once, because i asked about the dinosaurs. so what happened there? im curious if anyone can explain from a religious stand, besides the devil is tricking you.
the ghost of Mef: That’s wildddd. I know that some denominations have an issue with them but I don’t really understand that
Valra - Open to DMs!: Probably because it doesn't exactly align with creationalism
NXiL: Actually there are descriptions in Job which is technically the oldest book/story in the bible and predates the writings of Genesis that describe a creature called the leviathan which was giant covered in scales and could not be tamed by man. It's an interesting read to look over. Most Christians who bother to consider the creation story in light of fossil records would say that our understanding of the fossil record is confused because of the global flood in Genesis. Something earth changing happened in the bible record that would have drastically effected the land and sea, changing what was once sea-bed to land and opening up deep holes which we call the ocean. If you want more, look up Ken Ham on YouTube. He is a creationist who tries to explain how the fossil record and the biblical record line up. And before you get offended by the idea, you should know that those of us who are over 35 learned about completely different dinosaurs then they talk about today. Because science isn't fact. It's a study to better understand and question. But in the grand scheme of history, it's been way off. Bible on the other hand is what got us as a society to where we are now. As much as churches should never criticize someone for asking questions, it's also ignorant to criticize someone for having a belief that doesn't match your own about something untestable and unknowable. Also, I'm a six day creationist, don't @ me.
CaNTwAitTtoSeeWeEn: will read more into those things there
jeff76: I think people who argue about dinosaurs are missing the whole point of religion. It's supposed to be a practice that provides a framework for living life in harmony with your fellow man imo, not an argument over trivial details or a fight against science. Again, just my opinion...
jeff76: I don't know why so many religious people want to fight about fossils.
jeff76: I guess some people want to take every word in the bible literally, but it causes them to miss the point.
DouSoDou: I agree, but you have to think about the culture of the specific sects of Christianity they were raised in.
My dad's side of the family are several generations of Pentecostal ministers, my father included. They take the bible quite literally. Unfortunately, the bible doesn't spell everything out, so they tend to 'fill in the gaps' as best as they can with the information they have.
DouSoDou: I don't necessarily agree with them, but I am just providing that perspective. When you are raised that way and are not introduced to many people or religious viewpoints outside of those communities, it is very easy to just believe the bible and what leaders in the congregation tell you.
DouSoDou: It becomes harder and harder to take a book written so long ago literally when it becomes less applicable as technology progresses. You fall into this trap of just blindly following leaders of the faith because you don't know how to interpret the Bible when faced with modern problems or stances.
DouSoDou: And when the church and it's community is your whole life, you risked being shunned from that family if you don't choose right.
DouSoDou: So I think arguing trivial points like fossils and dinosaurs can sometimes have less to do with the point and more to do with your current and future standing with the social circle.
jeff76: I was raised in a church like that
jeff76: They tried to convince me all that [stuff] about carbon dating being a hoax.
jeff76: My dad was always pretty well grounded in science, but my mom believed all those hoax theories.
DouSoDou: Haha, yea I feel you. My mom is an environmental scientist that specializes in soil and water, so there was a massive divide between their beliefs.
DouSoDou: They eventually got divorced and my mom became Atheist. Her second husband was Buddhist. That was how I kind of got out of that cycle.
jeff76: Wow, my parents split up too. My dad sounds like your mom.
jeff76: I've been listening to a lot of audio clips from Alan Watts
jeff76: I guess his views are very Buddhist based
NXiL: @jeff76 I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that someone is missing the point because they believe history unfolded a particular way. People can have thoughts and ideas about their world view and it doesn't have to become an argument.
DouSoDou: Alan Watts is a trip.
DouSoDou: He was, but he was also wrapped up in the LSD experiments.
jeff76: @NXiL yeah, it always turns out to be a discussion that goes nowhere.
DouSoDou: I like to listen to him but I take some of the stuff he says with a grain of salt. But I also like to read a lot of the books by people that inspired him. I enjoy interpreting them myself more than taking his word for it.
NXiL: If your goal is to change someone's mind sure. But it is possible to have two people share their beliefs and not argue about it, but just present them in context of their view. It happens all the time. Just takes mature people.
jeff76: I don't understand the fundamental reason for the discussions about fossil history and I'm not sure how it got tangled up with religion.
NXiL: It's because people want to understand how someone can believe something that seems to contradict the measured science and understanding. It's a reasonable thing to ask questions about. But I wouldn't judge someone as being a bad person or even consider it a lack of faith for what they believe in the matters of creation. I just share what I believe and how I have come to those beliefs. They are definitely not core to Christianity and understanding the human condition.
jeff76: I've spent way too many hours listening to these conspiracy theories that aren't based on facts so I'm not really interested in the subject matter.
NXiL: "these conspiracy theories"?
jeff76: Again, the subject matter doesn't align with my views on the purpose of religion
NXiL: That's fine for you. But like, your tossing a lot of shade.
jeff76: I really don't want to discuss it
NXiL: then don't.
NXiL: lol
jeff76: I'm not tossing shade. People are allowed to believe in whatever they want. I just don't share those beliefs.
NXiL: That's cool, but maybe re read all you said, cause it went from "people not getting the point of relegion" to conspiracy theories. That's what I call tossing shade on other people's beliefs. I think it's best to listen to a lot of perspectives and then judge for yourself on things. This goes with all aspects of life, not just religion. And if you carry a lot of pre-conceived judgement any time a subject comes up, it might prevent you from fully hearing and understanding people.
jeff76: No doubt I have lots of preconceived judgments on this subject because my mom tried to brainwash me
NXiL: understandable. I'm sorry it has caused so much strife in your life.
NXiL: I do find it an enjoyable thing to ponder on. Almost like thinking about the future and what it holds, sometimes it's just interesting to think about our origin.
jeff76: Oh, yeah, they tried to convince me that evolution was a hoax too even though the scientific community has so much evidence to support it that it is now considered scientific fact.
NXiL: Well, I believe in evolution. But simply put, I believe you can count the age of a tree by it's rings. But I also believe God created a full grown man and if he had walked up to a tree that was created the same week he was and cut it down, it would have had rings in it. I also believe the stars were created and God being all knowing at the same time created the photons traveling through space so that the first man could look up at the stars and appreciate them. These are things that I choose to believe because I know that what we believe about who we are defines us and our purpose. It doesn't change the fact that life is full of suffering and pain. It isn't something someone has to believe in order to find salvation in Jesus. It's just a choice I make because I like it. And if you are willing to believe in the supernatural and that God exists outside of our limited understanding of physics and biology. Then why not believe in a beautiful poetic beginning to the story. I don't think anyone is lying about science. I just don't think it impacts or changes my belief. We all put faith in something. We can't even know our great grandparents history without trusting the stories of our parents and grand parents or the written records of others. Trust and faith is at the core of human existence. And believing one thing or another doesn't mean anyone is dumber or smarter. But it is a choice that everyone makes.
jeff76: Yeah, I get that
NXiL: And it doesn't really make a huge difference in today and how we care for each other, so whatever your choice, I respect you and care about you as a fellow human.
jeff76: That's cool. I appreciate that.
NXiL: Now, I'm gonna go hit some thrift stores. Fun chatting.
jeff76: Ok, see you around.
DouSoDou: @jeff76 I just wanted to clear up some misinformation with Alan Watts. It was Ram Dass that was engaged in the Harvard LSD experiments, not Alan Watts. I sometimes get them confused. Sorry about that! Didn't want to mislead you there!
jeff76: Oh, no worries. It's ok
DouSoDou: Ram Dass is an interesting dude too, though (especially if you like Alan Watts.) Alan Watts is a little more digestible, since many of his lectures were recorded, but Ram Dass has a lot of interesting literature out there too.
jeff76: I also like Eckhart Tolle, but he's not Buddhist...
DouSoDou: Well Ram Dass is inspired by Hinduism, but a lot of their viewpoints aligned.
DouSoDou: I don't think I have read anything by Eckhart Tolle, but it looks like something I would be interested in.
DouSoDou: I have been focusing more on Jungian Shadow Work type stuff over religious work and research. I have been picking over the Bible more lately though to try and understand it better.
jeff76: Jordan Peterson talks a lot about the shadow. I like his stuff too. Oh, and his lectures on the bible are fabulous. I've watched hundreds of hours of his lectures.
DouSoDou: Cool! I will have to dig around on that some too. I'm super into religious and psychological literature, so your suggestions are very appreciated! :grin:
jeff76: @DouSoDou oh nice. Yeah, you're welcome. I hope you like it too.
Daniel:

CaNTwAitTtoSeeWeEn: btw, i got asked to leave a church group once, because i asked about the dinosaurs. so what happened there?

If dinosaurs existed, they existed along side humans.

NXiL: Actually there are descriptions in Job which is technically the oldest book/story in the bible and predates the writings of Genesis that describe a creature called the leviathan which was giant covered in scales and could not be tamed by man.

The leviathan is a dragon and these creatures are alive to this day, living in the ocean.xx

If you want more, look up Ken Ham

Ken Ham is a false teacher.xxi He says it doesn't matter if you believe the earth is billions of years old. Basically, he says it doesn't matter if you believe Scripture.

jeff76: I think people who argue about dinosaurs are missing the whole point of religion. It's supposed to be a practice that provides a framework for living life in harmony with your fellow man imo, not an argument over trivial details

Scripture isn't trivial. You must believe all of it or you aren't saved.

jeff76: I guess some people want to take every word in the bible literally, but it causes them to miss the point.

The point is to fear God.xxii

DouSoDou: I agree, but you have to think about the culture of the specific sects of Christianity they were raised in. My dad's side of the family are several generations of Pentecostal ministers

Pentecostals are not in the truth. They are part of the broad category of protestants who believe in the false doctrine of the trinity.xxiii

DouSoDou: It becomes harder and harder to take a book written so long ago literally when it becomes less applicable as technology progresses. You fall into this trap of just blindly following leaders of the faith because you don't know how to interpret the Bible when faced with modern problems or stances.

I know how. Believe the Scripture above all else.
Tony Soprano©: https://youtu.be/_ACt2MrkeHE

YouTube
Agatan Foundation
Best of Christopher Hitchens Amazing Arguments And Clever Comeback...

Tony Soprano©: Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.
Tony Soprano©: The Bible may, indeed does, contain a warrant for trafficking in humans, for ethnic cleansing, for slavery, for bride-price, and for indiscriminate massacre, but we are not bound by any of it because it was put together by crude, uncultured human mammals.
Tony Soprano©: I'll add that lying to the dying and children for a living is super creepy and morally wrong.
DouSoDou: Daniel, Romans 10:9-11 New International Version (NIV)

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

As per the scripture, your logic is once again flawed.

I don't need people to tell me what the Bible is about. I will read it and I will make my own judgement because...

1 John 4:13 New International Version (NIV)

13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

Daniel: You believe in a false christ if you don’t believe all of Scripture.
Daniel:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

DouSoDou: I believe you are misinterpreting that to fit your narrative. There is a difference between seeking out God when you are in need and seeking out God in all things.
DouSoDou: Imo, God is in everything. By taking the time to listen, whether it be the world or the word, you can hear what is being said.
DouSoDou: YOU are taking the role of the leader I spoke of previously. Confusing people and advising them to follow the scripture through YOU and not GOD.
DouSoDou: I personally think that is dangerous and misguided. I am very glad you are concerned for our souls. You must care because you are persistent, but God is LOVE and you must love and accept all to lead them to HIM.
DouSoDou: You catch more flies with honey, my dear.
Daniel: You have your own narrative, and it’s not even based in Scripture. You twist the one verse above to mean something it doesn’t. Don’t take my word for it. Read the Scripture like a child and take it literally. It is out of love that I warn you.
Daniel:

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. (Proverbs 27:6)

DouSoDou: Haha, ok. So we think the same of each other and that is all good and well. I do take the time to read the bible and reflect. That being said, I am not a Christian, I am spiritually ambiguous. I just think you can come off as a little harsh and I am trying to warn you that you may not be winning over this community with your fire and brimstone. So maybe you should apply that scripture to yourself?
DouSoDou: I sincerely hope you have a good day and I hope you open yourself up to the community a little more because we could learn from each other I think.
DouSoDou: awaiting the long, thoughtful Mef response lol
DouSoDou: Oml, she writing a book.
the ghost of Mef: Biblical interpretation can be pretty subjective. People can come away from the exact same verse with completely different interpretations. Plus there’s the question of what version of the Bible you are reading. A single word can change the meaning entirely. We can already assume that some things got distorted in translation and as the meaning of certain words changed over time. How can we know that any one version or interpretation is the “true” interpretation? If this were so apparent, there would not be so many conflicting interpretations amongst Christians. I’ve never met two Christians that interpreted everything the same way. Though even assuming this were possible, there are countless contradictions throughout the Bible that i have tried to find the meaning to in the past, but some of these contradictions can not possibly be reconciled without apologetics. In my search for truth, I had found myself doing all kinds of mental gymnastics to make sense of why the loving god I know would say such contradictory things. I’ve personally come to the conclusion that there’s no way of knowing if the Bible was divinely inspired when it’s been in the hands of so many imperfect men. I don’t have any problem with people who believe it, but I understand that sometimes those apologetics are necessary to even remain ideologically consistent, because the Bible just is not.
the ghost of Mef: Lol @DouSoDou
Daniel: Those who fear God will agree on what Scripture says; they will not agree to disagree on the challenging parts.
DouSoDou: Well said, Mef.
Daniel: I do not assume anything was distorted, as God said He would preserve His word.xxiv
Daniel: There are no contradictions.xxv

I’ve personally come to the conclusion that there’s no way of knowing if the Bible was divinely inspired when it’s been in the hands of so many imperfect men.

God has used evil men to do His will many times in Scripture.xxvi
the ghost of Mef: And evil men have used the name of God to justify their actions many times throughout history
the ghost of Mef: What version of the Bible do you believe to be completely correct, if you don’t mind me asking? @Daniel different versions say slightly different things, and I’d be interested to hear how you came to the conclusions you did
DouSoDou: Also interested in this answer...
Daniel: I don't know that any english translation can be completely correct. The NKJV is pretty good, but greek hebrew and aramaic original texts is better.xxvii
DouSoDou: (Side note) They make these fantastic study bibles with all the versions. I really like them. I have an old diglot from my dad's days in Bible college too that is quite interesting for comparison.
DouSoDou: NKJV is the primary bible used by the Free Masons in their lodges, so I find that interesting as well.
DouSoDou: (Sorry I will stop religion gushing tho... hah.)
DouSoDou: Can you read Greek and Hebrew? I don't even know how you would go about learning Aramaic... :expressionless:
Daniel: no I can't, but there is a member of our church who can
DouSoDou: Who is your minister/pastor? Did you make the website?
Daniel: we don't have a leader. If you're talking about the church website, it's written by Darwin and not me
DouSoDou: Ahh yes, I looked through the website. It definitely took some time because there is a LOT of text.
DouSoDou: How were you introduced to your church/congregation?
DouSoDou: Do you guys like take turns preaching?
the ghost of Mef: I’m glad we can agree on the translation likely messing some stuff up :sweat_smile:
Daniel: I was introduced over the internet. At Bible study any men may share things, but much of the time is spent going over Darwin's latest translation.
DouSoDou: Hmm, is this a men specific study group, or are women allowed to be involved? My dad's family are Open Bible ministers, so they are one of the first to recognize female ministers. A women's perspective on the scripture is very important to them.
Tony Soprano©: Does it feel good believing in things you cant possibly know is true 100%? Seems very weird and concerning to me.
NXiL: Believing something is true 100% that is unknowable is pretty much the definition of a love relationship. That said. Daniel is in some sort of cult, and at some point, we may have to remove him from this channel cause he's not passing the vibe check.
DouSoDou: Yea, it sounds like a cult,xxviii unfortunately. I will continue to be intrigued until that time comes to pass...
Tony Soprano©: What he was saying in reply to the people above was turbo cringy.
DouSoDou: Idk, I think cults are fascinating tho. From his introduction, he sounds like a very smart, successful, and personable man. I am so interested in how people fall into cults.
DouSoDou: For the forlorn or those who are in desperation, I see the appeal. But, some people don't fit that. Many scientologists are good examples of this. Like HOW?! I mean, I know a lot of them were unaware of the Xenu stuff. In fact, I think you have to be a level 5 or higher for them to even tell you.
DouSoDou: Oh man I could go on a Scientology rant tho... hahaha.
DouSoDou: And then you have groups like The Family International that are still operating even though they were openly incestuous and pedophiles.
DouSoDou: How did those individuals get to the point where they could be convinced that something of that nature is ok, subject their families to it, and cut ties with anyone who criticized their beliefs?
DouSoDou: shivers
DouSoDou: Because, personally, I'd stab a ho.
DouSoDou: Try to brainwash me or hurt my family? Nuh uh.
Daniel: women are present but silent when we are in churchxxix
Daniel: Scripture says true believers were accused of being in a cultxxx
DouSoDou: Very sad news. :cry:
Daniel: It’s sad that we obey Scripture?
DouSoDou: Oh no, women being silent.
Daniel: Scripture commands that
DouSoDou: Well I am pretty vocal when my buttons get pushed. :person_shrugging: I like to listen and observe, but I can be outspoken when I feel the need (obviously, lol.)
DouSoDou: And I won't circle the conversation back to literal translation vs modern day application either.
NXiL: 1) The early church was considered a cult by Jews, because their teachings meant an end to Jewish law. Not the same thing as modern day saying you are in a cult. Plus, by that logic, anyone in a cult would say that and then think it backs up their beliefs.

2) Jesus taught for us to keep an eye out for false teachers. Not by the ability for them to formulate an argument, but by their good fruit. Good fruit here meaning their calling to the gospel message and the fruit it bears. So if you are in a circle of >20 guys who are saying the women shouldn't speak and yelling at the rest of the believers out there that they are doing it wrong and that group isn't exactly spreading or growing and producing fruit, as in the fruit of the spirit, which is encompassed by love, then sir, you are in a cult. Maybe one that knows the bible and quotes it a lot, but as you probably know, even the devil knows the bible. Without love, it's meaningless noise. And even someone with a limited spiritual connection to God can tell that everything you say on your website and in here is mostly just loud noise with no love. Ergo, you are in a non fruit producing cult that cares more about sanctimony then the gospel.

All that said. You can be in whatever group or faith you want, but if you talk down about someone else's spiritual journey one more time, I will remove you from this channel. Understood? Don't tell people what they believe or criticize them. If you have a good message, feel free to share it, but all I have seen is an attempt to argue and vague positioning of righteousness while putting down others in the same breath. Try a little more love and a little less condemnation perhaps. @Daniel
Daniel:

Jesus taught for us to keep an eye out for false teachers.

Indeed. And we are calling them out. And you are now calling us a cult for calling out false teachers.

So if you are in a circle of >20 guys who are saying the women shouldn't speak and yelling at the rest of the believers out there that they are doing it wrong

Scripture says otherwise and I can prove it.

Without love

It is out of love that we warn people. We don't want anyone to perish.

You can be in whatever group or faith you want, but if you talk down about someone else's spiritual journey one more time, I will remove you from this channel.

So then obeying the Gospel is not allowed in this channel. Which is not surprising, as most false christian channels enforce this rule.

You keep mentioning fruit. Fruit is what we say and do. Your fruit is rotten because you speak against Scripture.xxxi
the ghost of Mef: Just since you brought up cults, I’m gonna drop a link to info on Steven Hassan’s BITE model, which has been adopted by many scholars in identifying and assessing the systemic use of undue influence in royalist culture groups. The criteria are behavior control, information control, emotional control, and thought control. Basically systems that discourage critical thinking, isolate people, and encourage dependence. It may not be exactly pertinent here, but it’s a useful resource for identifying manipulative behavior https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

Freedom of Mind Resource Center
Steven Hassan's BITE Model - Freedom of Mind Resource Center

Many people think of mind control as an ambiguous, mystical process that cannot be defined in concrete terms. In reality, mind control refers to a specific set of methods and techniques, such as hypnosis or thought-stopping, that influence how a person thinks, feels, and ac...
NXiL: My fruit is fine. You have no idea, you are just quick to judge because you lack patience, kindness and a few other fruits. You are just a custom to using condemnation to manipulate people, but I know the Bible and have a personal relationship with Jesus, so that crap doesn’t work and just revivals who you really are.
NXiL: Those are great red flags @the ghost of Mef I am gonna look into this resource. Cause it is hard to put your finger on the type of thinking, but instinctively it tends to trigger concern when you see people getting involved in groups like that.

  1. NXiL is a moderator of this chat.

  2. Matthew 7:

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

  3. John 1:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

  4. Matthew 4:

    4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

    See also "Are you saying that you worship the Bible?" and "How do you know that Jesus is literally the Bible?"

  5. Romans 10:

    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

  6. Galatians 5:

    18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    See also "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." and "By the law is the knowledge of sin."

  7. See also "What is cult behavior?"

  8. Colossians 2:

    8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

  9. 2 Timothy 3:

    16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

  10. Jude 1:

    3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.


  11. Darwin: Amen

  12. Romans 14:

    Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

  13. See "Marks of a Cult"

  14. See "Homosexuality and Marriage" and "If you loved the homosexuals, you would warn them likewise." and "God gave them up to vile passions."

  15. Romans 9:

    22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

    Proverbs 16:

    4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

  16. This conversation took place in an Oklahoma chat room.

  17. Psalm 82:

    6 I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.

    John 10:

    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’?

  18. Deuteronomy 6:

    4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

    Mark 12:

    29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

    1 Timothy 2:

    5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

  19. Matthew 5:

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

  20. See "Leviathan Is A Dragon"

  21. See "Ken Ham Is Full of Hog"

  22. See "The True Fear of God"

  23. See "I do not think you know what Christology means." and "He Is Holy Gods. V. An Unholy Creed."

  24. Psalm 12:

    6 The words of the Lord are pure words,
    Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
    Purified seven times.
    7 You shall keep them, O Lord,
    You shall preserve them from this generation forever.


  25. Darwin: There are to the mind of man (1 Corinthians 2:14), e.g. Proverbs 26:4-5

  26. See "Those who handle the law did not know Me."

  27. See "God's Holy Word" which is a translation by Darwin Fish. Warning, PDF.

  28. See "Marks of a Cult"

  29. See "Scriptural View Of Women," III. Submission, C. Submission In The Church.

    Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

  30. Acts 28:

    22 But we desire to hear from you what you think; for concerning this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere.”

  31. Matthew 7:

    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

    26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

    Matthew 12:

    33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    Luke 6:

    43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

    46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

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