Daniel P. Barron

This is a continuation of a previous article.

james_-: The whole "the bible is against abortion" is really just a recent phenomenon, an argument made by evangelicals in the last 100 years or so, it has no long lasting tradition in Christianity.
Daniel: Exodus 21:

22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

closedanger: It is wrong and every stinking Human knows it is.
TrollT: james_, That's in part why I argue that many Christians use it as a Magic Book to prop up their extremist views.
closedanger: And it's so painful.
DragonEnergy: Why should we care what the Bible says?
TrollT: DragonEnergy, many Christians fall back upon it in place of the Holy Spirit and their church.
closedanger: Okay, now we have something.
Daniel: DragonEnergy, because you will burn forever in the lake of fire if you don't believe it.
TrollT: DragonEnergy, so if you are a Christian, it is part of the methodology of much Christianity.
closedanger: Nothing is stopping you from giving it a try. Liberty is like that.
DragonEnergy: TrollT, I am obviously arguing from a position of non-belief. Daniel, I don't believe that.
closedanger: Free will - as Man is designed. ⁱ
TrollT: DragonEnergy, then I don't think you should care.
Daniel: DragonEnergy, then you are going to hell.
james_-: Daniel, in the Law, restitution for injuring a woman who then gives birth to a stillborn is LESS than the restitution for the death of a living human being...meaning that the bible values a fetus as LESS THAN A LIVING HUMAN BEING.
DragonEnergy: Daniel, how could you convince me of that? Because I don't believe hell exists.
james_-: Read numbers 5:11-31, ⁱⁱ God is pro-abortion. ⁱⁱⁱ
closedanger: Do you remember the context, james_?
TrollT: DragonEnergy, the scripture of religious people is important to them and few others unless they lord it over them and extort them according to it.
Daniel: james_-, huh? I see it says that the punishment for killing an unborn child is that you shall be killed likewise.
closedanger: No HE IS NOT.
DragonEnergy: TrollT, you're on ignore due to plain stupidity.
closedanger: Don't do that again.
james_-: Daniel, that is for killing the woman; not the fetus.
DragonEnergy: Don't tell other people what to care about.
Daniel: DragonEnergy, you already know it's true, but you'll only believe it if God causes you to. ^iv
TrollT: LOL
james_-: closedanger, yes God is, otherwise God would not have given us that rule.
Daniel: james_-, where does it say that?
closedanger: I asked you the Context for that. Which you do not know. At all.
TrollT: DragonEnergy, I'll do as I please, thank you kindly.
DragonEnergy: TrollT, be as stupid as you want, no stress.
TrollT: DragonEnergy, please ignore me now.
closedanger: I ask you first to see if you know. You try to answer, and then I fill you in. Usually how this works.
DragonEnergy: TrollT, you're very dumb.
Daniel: Seems to me it says if the child isn't harmed, the punishment is for the judges to decide, and if the child is harmed, the attacker will be likewise harmed.
TrollT ignores DragonEnergy for his mean and caustic manner.
closedanger: Daniel is closer than anyone.
DragonEnergy: TrollT, you're socially retarded. Learn how to act. And talk.
closedanger: It is also that a Child is not worth losing Tribes over but you sure knew that with your extensive Biblical knowledge from finding Scripture to back your worthless and godless political party.
james_-: Daniel, read exodus 21 closely.
closedanger: You are also a shrill, james_. Yes, let's.
james_-: The text says if the pregnant woman miscarries, it is only a fine. If injury occurs to the woman, then it is wound for wound, stripe for stripe, life for life.
closedanger: Read Exodus to your satisfaction and hand pick from Leviticus and Deuteronomy to make your democrat party sound like it has morals. Go ahead. Pharasi.
james_-: "gives birth prematurely" = miscarries.
closedanger: So we Encouraged Child Birth, no? Go forth and multiply? No? What is the context here, james_? Huh?
james_-: The context is Exodus 21.
Daniel: james_-, it doesn't say that "birth prematurely" means that the child is born dead.
closedanger: Set up a welfare state and abort the ones that do not pay the welfare check? No, Context is not the passage. Context IS CONTEXT. Can you read?
james_-: That's the clear meaning of the text, the crappy NKJV ^v says "give birth prematurely," which is a terrible translation.
closedanger: Why was this said by the Rabbon? Have you tried it in Hebrew?
james_-: "gives birth prematurely" means miscarries.
closedanger: See why you NEED Jews? You know nothing about that book at all. Any of it. Unless it is politically usable.
TrollT: james_, the problem of "meaning of the text" is that the criteria for establishing that is never agreed, so it comes down to individuals or churches which argue the matter. This is not ever established clearly.
closedanger: 'Shame on you all. All Arguments were finished after the NT. You had to go dig for this content to defend your phony Virtue. Asondra.
Daniel: Exodus 21:

22 And if men fight, and they hit a pregnant woman, and her children come out, and there is no harm, he shall surely be punished as the woman's husband puts upon him; and he shall give among the judges. 23 And if there is harm, then you shall give soul for soul, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

There is a more accurate translation. ^vi
closedanger: Thank you, Daniel. I knew I could count on you. It is a passage about Justice - more over compensation to correct wrongdoing. There is nothing there about pulling a Bey Bey apart in the womb alive. Please turn to the part in your Bible where it says pull a Bey Bey apart in the womb.
Daniel: Well just because the Bible doesn't say to do something doesn't mean it is wrong to do. But in the case of killing an unborn baby, it says it is like killing a born person.
james_-: Uh, if you strike a pregnant woman and the child comes out early, especially in ancient times, that means the child is dead.
closedanger: It says Chose Life quite boldly.
Daniel: james_-, there is nothing new under the sun. For all I know they had better medicine back then.
TrollT: Technology is new under the sun. Those who ignore this are fools.
closedanger: You are reaching, james_.
Daniel: TrollT, the Bible doesn't say that.
james_-: No, it's common sense reading of the text, pregnant woman gets struck, child comes out early, child is dead, there'd be no reason to include it in the text otherwise.
TrollT: If your scripture says "there is nothing new under the sun", then it is false.
closedanger: Actually, it does.
TrollT: Technology is new.
Daniel: Ecclesiastes 1:

9 That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.

closedanger: It was Young King David.
TrollT: Science is new. It's application leads to technology and real knowledge.
Daniel: james_-, I don't want "common sense." I want God's sense.
closedanger: It's like chasing the wind. You had to be there.
james_-: Daniel, you have predetermined God's sense based on silly and recent evangelical arguments that are only 100 years old.
Daniel: I believe most churches lead to hell, james_, even those that say abortion is murder.
closedanger: Daniel has made the case quite nicely.
james_-: Your monopoly on the truth doesn't even go back to 1850, Daniel; it's really kind of pathetic.
Daniel: My truth is from everlasting. ^vii
TrollT: james_, why does it matter how old they are?
closedanger: 1850? When are you? AD? lol
james_-: Troll, because he assumes his truth is "from everlasting." Believe me, it's not.
TrollT: james_, fair enough.
closedanger: It IS.
Daniel: John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

TrollT: One might proclaim its 'everlasting meaning and truth' but also that it wasn't properly understood until 10 minutes ago.
closedanger: At the head of ALL things was Hashem.... Aww. Be right back. Back. Had to move back home. I need that other machine for Venezuela.
TrollT: I like your methods of argument, Daniel.
closedanger: He is well studied. Makes me happy. People like that. The Pope did a good job today. No, really. Got honest about this crises right.

1. Nope. The Bible does not support the false free will doctrine. ^
2. Numbers 5:
   

   11 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, 13 and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught— 14 if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, who has defiled herself; or if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, although she has not defiled herself— 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. He shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, because it is a grain offering of jealousy, an offering for remembering, for bringing iniquity to remembrance.
   16 ‘And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord. 17 The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 Then the priest shall stand the woman before the Lord, uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering for remembering in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy. And the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 And the priest shall put her under oath, and say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you, and if you have not gone astray to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be free from this bitter water that brings a curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has lain with you”— 21 then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman—“the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh rot and your belly swell; 22 and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make your belly swell and your thigh rot.”
   ‘Then the woman shall say, “Amen, so be it.”
   23 ‘Then the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall scrape them off into the bitter water. 24 And he shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her to become bitter. 25 Then the priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, shall wave the offering before the Lord, and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the offering, as its memorial portion, burn it on the altar, and afterward make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then it shall be, if she has defiled herself and behaved unfaithfully toward her husband, that the water that brings a curse will enter her and become bitter, and her belly will swell, her thigh will rot, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children.
   29 ‘This is the law of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when the spirit of jealousy comes upon a man, and he becomes jealous of his wife; then he shall stand the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute all this law upon her. 31 Then the man shall be free from iniquity, but that woman shall bear her guilt.’ ”

    ^

3. Nowhere does this passage say the woman is pregnant. And if she is pregnant, it's God who aborts the child; not the priest or the woman. The same water that causes a guilty woman to rot will have no effect on an innocent woman. ^
4. He also caused me to not believe in him. ^
5. New King James Version. ^
6. From God's Holy Word, a translation by Darwin Fish. ^
7. Psalm 41:
   

   13 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel
   From everlasting to everlasting!
   Amen and Amen.

    ^