Daniel:
VeganAteMyMeat: This is my last reach out before becoming an agnostic. I grew up Evangelical Free. I also went to a Baptist school and developed a deep understanding of the Fundamental “Calvary Baptist” interpretation of scripture. Over time I began to reject this view as I found no spiritual growth and felt bogged down by rules.That's good. Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel lead to hell.
I'm now in College working at a Catholic Church.
That's bad. Catholicism leads to hell.
In no place does it ever say [God] is evil or that he is wicked.
True, but He does create evil. (Isaiah 45:7 i)
God teaches the use of a bizarre ritual using cursed “bitter water” to abort a fetus who was conceived through infidelity.
Point taken. More fetus (child) killing. I don’t know how to reconcile this. It actually disgusts me.
God causes all things. (Romans 11:36 ii) He causes people to sin so that He can send them to hell and destroy them. (Romans 9:22 iii) He does this to adults and children.
The unborn children did nothing to deserve that.
That's not true. (Psalm 58:3 iv)
How can one say that the English translations are the words of God.
There are English translations that are good enough, but you're right. The Bible is written in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Check out our translation that aims to be more literal to the original languages.
Some Catholics believe Protestants are going to Hell. And vice Versa. Even within Protestantism. Baptist’s sometimes call out Lutherans. Etc. That is not the unified Body Christ was talking about.
Most churches lead to hell. Most self-described Christians are not in the truth. That's exactly what the Bible said would happen. (Matthew 7:13 v)
Homosexual discrimination
The Bible condemns homosexuality.
If God is in the creation process, that means that he is making people Gay. We all know God does not tempt people to sin.
Correct. He causes people to sin.
That is discrimination against the disabled!
So what? They can still be saved. Doesn't mean they should do Levitical duties.
An unmarried woman could be compelled to marry her rapist, as long as the rapist could pay the standard bride price and the woman’s father was comfortable with the marriage (Deuteronomy 22:28–29 vi).
So? This doesn't mean a believer should rape. (Luke 6:31 vii)
Polygyny (a man having multiple wives at the same time) was not condemned, but was an accepted and legal custom (Deuteronomy 21:15–17; viii Genesis 4:19–24; ix and 2 Samuel 3:2–5 x).
Correct. What's the problem?
In short, within the legal literature of the Bible, women were not accorded the same status as men.
Again, so?
Seems to me you know quite a bit about the Bible. Many of the things you use as a reason to not believe are things that most self-described Christians do not know about or deny entirely. They will go to hell, and so will you. May God save you.
VeganAteMyMeat: What denomination (If it is one) are you? I’m intrigued because I have never seen (Or rather noticed) these verses so far.
Daniel: I belong to A True Church. We aren't any particular denomination. We just believe the whole Bible.
VeganAteMyMeat: Okay, how do you reconcile the verse that states that “God does not tempt people to sin” and the verse where Paul speaks about being justified by the law. Also, all of the manuscripts we use to translate the Bible today are from the Old Catholic Church. How can you trust your own translation? These questions aren’t meant to be pointed. I just am curious as to how you explain this.
Daniel: God doesn't tempt; He causes. What about being justified by the law? I don't get the question. God said He would preserve His word, (Psalm 12:6-7 xi) and He can do this through evil men. (2 Kings 10:29-31 xii)
VeganAteMyMeat: Galatians 2:
“16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
And that makes no sense considering Catholics believe what they believe based on their translation of the Bible.
Daniel I still don't get what you're asking. We're not justified by the law, but by faith.
VeganAteMyMeat: Right. So how can you say that I have to be absolutely perfect when I die or I’m going to hell? That makes no sense and is contrary completely to this verse.
Daniel: You have to believe it all. I got the impression that you didn't want to believe it.
VeganAteMyMeat: What are you trying to say? Going from “You’re going to hell for disagreeing with me” to “You don’t have to believe it all.” What do you mean?
Daniel: You do have to believe it all.
VeganAteMyMeat: So you don’t think that the Bible could have been changed by anyone. Or that people could have taken bits out. Or that the original people who decided it was canon (Constantine) didn’t have ulterior motives? Every time I bring this up, you quote a bible verse. But you can’t use a bible verse to prove that the Bible wasn’t ever manipulated by humans. That is circular reasoning. How do you know the Bible is telling the truth? Well I know the Bible is telling the truth because the Bible tells me it’s telling the truth. That doesn’t work. That’s like saying you know the defendant is telling the truth that he didn’t murder the person because he said so. So tell me, how can you trust every word of the Bible and know that it didn’t get altered by someone down the road? Because we don’t have the original manuscripts so changes could have been made.
Daniel: I can use the Bible to prove it hasn't been altered; it says so. (Psalm 12:6-7) I know the Bible is true because God made me believe it, (Romans 9:23 xiii) and because everyone knows it is true. (Romans 1:20 xiv)
VeganAteMyMeat: But that is circular reasoning. The Quran also says it is the word of God. So does every Holy book. No holy book is going to say “Hey listen to this book... but I’m not actually the word of God.”
Daniel: The Quran contradicts itself.
VeganAteMyMeat: And I’m saying the Bible does too. You said God causes people to sin. You cannot sin without first being tempted to sin. And Timothy says God does not tempt. So how do you reconcile this? There is not one time I did the wrong thing, without first even for a second contemplating whether to do it. If God “Makes us Sin” then how can he blame us for doing so? If I make someone give me all of their money, I have no right to judge them for being poor. That wouldn’t make any sense.
Daniel: The Bible does not contradict itself. It doesn't say to believe in some other book while then also contradicting that other book. (The Quran does this) God can lead you into temptation. (Matthew 6:13 xv) Who are you to reply against God? (Romans 9:20 xvi) You cannot make someone sin like God can. God makes the wicked like you could make a broken clay pot. The pot has no say in the matter that it was made wrong.
VeganAteMyMeat: Your entire argument on that I’m going to hell is in violation of James 4:11-12 xvii by the way. Also Romans 2:1-3. xviii Also Romans 14:1-13. xix Sit and read those verses if you wish. The Bible is very clear on who judges who goes to hell. and that is God the Father. That's it. Not you, not me. If someone claims to have a relationship with Jesus Christ, then it is not for me to decide where I think their eternal destination is. I can pray for them. But I do not make that final decision or guess where it will be. Neither should you.
Daniel: You're not my brother. Judging is believing. It's not "speaking evil" to say what the Bible says.
VeganAteMyMeat: That’s a very convenient way to explain away Jesus’ own words. Funny how now one verse says to go judge others. God never says “Judge your brother.”
Daniel: We are to exhort our brothers and sisters in Christ. (Hebrews 3:13 xx)
VeganAteMyMeat: Yeah. So if they are doing something wrong in the short term. Nowhere does it say to judge someone’s Salvation in Christ.
Daniel: It says to judge with righteous judgment. (John 7:24 xxi) It is righteous to show someone where they are not believing scripture, and thus are not saved.
VeganAteMyMeat: So let me ask you this Why do you think I specifically am not saved? And I want Your answer. Not a link to your website. If you want to speak with such authority then speak. James 4:12 xxii man. Again. The verse is speaking of Salvation.
Daniel: My website is my answer. You are not saved because you don't believe the Bible and you don't fear God.
VeganAteMyMeat: Other websites claim that you say the Holy Spirit is Seven spirits. That there were two virgin births, and that masturbation (Which inherently has lust connected to it) isn’t a sin. That the trinity isn’t a thing and Jesus is separate from God. Also that Jesus Deceives. How do you explain this. Because that is near heretical.
Daniel: What website is that? Yes, we believe that the seven spirits of God are God, there were at least two virgin births, masturbation isn't a sin, the trinity is a false doctrine, and that God deceives. We do not believe that Christ is separate from God; we believe that Christ is God.
VeganAteMyMeat: If deceiving is a sin, then how can God Deceive? God is Perfect: Matthew 5:14; xxiii Psalm 18:30; xxiv Romans 12:2. xxv “The interesting this is that it says “Do what is acceptable to God, which is acceptable and perfect.” How could God deceive if bearing false testimony is a sin? How could God deceive if Paul says not to be deceitful. That means God sins. That is heresy. If God deceives, he is obviously okay with deception as a concept. If this is true, then we can deceive. But that creates a contradiction between the 10 commandments and the writings of Paul and the Apostles.
Daniel: God defines what is sin. It's not sin when God does something. It's wrong for you to go kill someone, but for God it is not wrong.
VeganAteMyMeat: Killing and Murder are two different things. If I can’t kill, then if someone wants to shoot my daughter, I can’t kill them to stop them. It makes no sense. “Literal translation” doesn’t make sense for Hebrew or Greek. Both languages are extremely metaphorical and expressive. Most parts of the Old Testament are just huge metaphors and stories with a moral.
Daniel: I mean kill someone for no cause. Except that God has cause to kill everyone.
VeganAteMyMeat: Right. He does. So he isn’t sinning. Your response doesn’t hold up. There is no example in the Bible where God sins. None. Sinning is being imperfect and not holy. It literally means “Missing the Mark” so God missing the Mark means he is imperfect. Therefore a MASSIVE contradiction in scripture.
Daniel: So then God also has cause to send deception. Who are you to reply against Him? (Romans 9:20)
VeganAteMyMeat: No. I’m saying he doesn’t. He defined what sin is. Where does it say that he deceived individual people?
Daniel:
And the prophet who is deceived and speaks a word, I the Lord [Yehvâh] deceived that prophet and will stretch out my hand against him and will cause him to be destroyed from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)
Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying,'You shall have peace,' Whereas the sword reaches to the heart." (Jeremiah 4:10)
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. (Jeremiah 20:7 KJV)
- Isaiah 45:
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’ - Romans 11:
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
- Romans 9:
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
- Psalm 58:
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. - Matthew 7:
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
- Deuteronomy 22:
28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.
- Luke 6:
31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
- Deuteronomy 21:
15 “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, 16 then it shall be, on the day he bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.
- Genesis 4:
19 Then Lamech took for himself two wives: the name of one was Adah, and the name of the second was Zillah. 20 And Adah bore Jabal. He was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal. He was the father of all those who play the harp and flute. 22 And as for Zillah, she also bore Tubal-Cain, an instructor of every craftsman in bronze and iron. And the sister of Tubal-Cain was Naamah.
23 Then Lamech said to his wives:
“Adah and Zillah, hear my voice;
Wives of Lamech, listen to my speech!
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
Even a young man for hurting me.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.” - 2 Samuel 3:
2 Sons were born to David in Hebron: His firstborn was Amnon by Ahinoam the Jezreelitess; 3 his second, Chileab, by Abigail the widow of Nabal the Carmelite; the third, Absalom the son of Maacah, the daughter of Talmai, king of Geshur; 4 the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith; the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital; 5 and the sixth, Ithream, by David’s wife Eglah. These were born to David in Hebron.
- Psalm 12:
6 The words of the Lord are pure words,
Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
Purified seven times.
7 You shall keep them, O Lord,
You shall preserve them from this generation forever. - 2 Kings 10:
29 However Jehu did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who had made Israel sin, that is, from the golden calves that were at Bethel and Dan. 30 And the Lord said to Jehu, “Because you have done well in doing what is right in My sight, and have done to the house of Ahab all that was in My heart, your sons shall sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation.” 31 But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the Lord God of Israel with all his heart; for he did not depart from the sins of Jeroboam, who had made Israel sin.
- Romans 9:
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
- Romans 1:
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
- Matthew 6:
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. - Romans 9:
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
- James 4:
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
- Romans 2:
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
- Romans 14:
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
- Hebrews 3:
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
- John 7:
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
- James 4:
12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?
- Matthew 5:
14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
- Psalm 18:
30 As for God, His way is perfect;
The word of the Lord is proven;
He is a shield to all who trust in Him. - Romans 12:
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.