This is a continuation of a previous article.
Daniel: Deanr`, http://danielpbarron.com/2019/dont-look-now-but-you-believe-in-limited-atonement/.
Deanr`: Daniel, do you have something to say?
Daniel: Ya, that's a followup to a conversation we had some time ago.
Deanr`: Are you Daniel?
matthieu: lol What is that? Pasting IRC chats on blogs.
Daniel: Deanr`, yes.
Deanr`: Who is Darwin?
Daniel: The author of the articles on atruechurch.info.
Deanr`: I'd love to hear his answer on how Christ died for those who end up in hell. i
Daniel: You could email him. But his answer would probably be that the Bible says Christ died for those who end up in hell.
Deanr`: Well think about it. What does one MEAN when they say Christ paid for the sins of those in hell? If the sins were atoned for, they wouldn't be in hell!! When I say "died for", I mean "atone for."
matthieu: People keep wanting to sin in hell Deanr` but they can't. Hell doesn't grow.
Daniel: I don't want to rely on my own understanding; ii I take the Bible literally when it says Christ died for everyone.
matthieu: He did. But people have to accept him. That's why Islam doesn't save. But Muslims can be saved. Through baptism of desire.
Daniel: Indeed, therefor Christ died for the people who don't accept him and end up in hell.
matthieu: Or real baptism.
Deanr`: Daniel, the bible doesn't say that. iii You're choosing to interpret it to say that.
matthieu: Or blood baptism. See how people are lost without the tradition and magisterium and SOLA scriptures.
Deanr`: Daniel, do you agree that "dying for" equates to "paying the sin for"?
matthieu: What is dogma is dogma. What isn't is to be debated.
Daniel: Deanr`, yes.
Deanr`: Daniel, so if the sin is paid for, why are they in hell?
Daniel: Because they don't believe.
Deanr`: Daniel, isn't unbelief a sin?
Daniel: Yes.
Deanr`: So again, if their unbelief - a sin - is paid for, why are they being punished?
Daniel: Because they don't believe.
Sayorj: :o)
Deanr`: You're not making sense.
Sayorj: I think, Deanr`'s question is valid.
Deanr`: If you owe a debt, and the debt is paid, you're no longer in debt.
Daniel: I'm not interested in your logic. The Bible says Christ died for all.
matthieu: And plaf one more denomination aka atruechurch.
Rogg: Oh, just wanted to say, its amazing how all you so called Christians get along so well. It's so warm. What a joke.
Daniel: Rogg, they aren't Christians.
Deanr`: Daniel, what bible passage do you have in mind when you say that?
matthieu: Rogg, sup?
Rogg: Very loving.
Daniel: 1 Timothy 2:
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Rogg: Yeah okay Daniel and you are right. Save it.
Grapey: I'm trying to figure out the question of discussion.
Sayorj: Possibly there are few-ideas in religions which doesn't make-sense or alien or fabricated etc.
Deanr`: Daniel, okay, so... your focus is 1Tim2:6, correct?
Daniel: That's not the only passage.
Deanr`: But let's talk about each passage, one at a time.
Daniel: Okay, and this one says "ransom for all."
Deanr`: Okay... so, the Reformed understanding is that Jesus's death on the cross was sufficient to pay for all sins. Would that interpretation be possible?
Daniel: It doesn't say "it could pay for" -- it says it did pay for.
Deanr`: Right, it was sufficient to pay for all sins. Think about this. You're almost there actually.
Daniel: Yes, you're saying it could have but didn't actually.
Deanr`: You said, "because they didn't believe." If it actually DID pay for the sins of the unbeliever, how would it be just for God to punish them?
Daniel: There is no unrighteousness with God; iv He creates the wicked for destruction. v That is "not fair" to human logic.
Deanr`: The wicked, yes...but if the sin was paid for, they would no longer be wicked.
Daniel: They are vessels fitted for destruction.
Grapey: Interesting.
Deanr`: Right, but only because their sins of unbelief isn't paid for.
Sayorj: So there is no paying as admission to destruction is stated.
Daniel: No, because God wants to show His wrath.
Sayorj: o_O
Deanr`: Daniel, you're attempting to say that those who have had their sins forgiven..... are still being punished.
Grapey: .pro 16 4
Barnabas: KJV Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Deanr`: Which makes zero sense. This would make God unjust.
Daniel: No it doesn't.
Deanr`: How could it not?
Sayorj: I think, God punishing an innocent for sin of someone-else doesn't make any-sense too.
Daniel: Because God cannot be unjust.
Deanr`: But you're making God unjust with your interpretation.
Grapey: Those in hell are there for storage until judgement.
Daniel: That's your understanding; not what the Bible says.
Grapey: And who is the only once sentenced to hell so far ???? Satan right.
Deanr`: Grapey, hell is the eternal judgment.
Daniel: Grapey, most of the world goes to and stays in hell. vi
Grapey: Satan is the only one sentenced so far.
Daniel: Nope. Most of the people who have ever lived have been "sentenced."
Deanr`: Daniel, you can't say the bible says "X" and have it violate sound logic. God is not irrational.
Daniel: The Bible isn't logical.
Deanr`: The truth of the bible must be consistently logical.
Sayorj: o_O
Daniel: No it mustn't.
Sayorj: Deanr` is right.
Deanr`: Otherwise, it cannot be truth.
Daniel: That's a lie.
Sayorj: Anything unwise-ir-rational would be a lie - if not delusion.
Grapey: Daniel, you don't think the Word of God is logical?
Sayorj: So religion ought to be rational.
Daniel: That is your human understanding, which you must not rely on.
Sayorj: o_O
Daniel: Grapey, it makes sense to God, not to men.
Sayorj: You remind me of muslim-jew-and hindu mullah/rabbi/pandits lol
Deanr`: Daniel, I think you need some basic education on bible hermeneutics. You're not making sense. You're essentially making the claim that irrational interpretation can be true, which if true, means we cannot understand anything.
Grapey: .isa 55 8 9
Barnabas: KJV Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Sayorj: They never reason. ;o)
Grapey: Is that what you are meaning as far as logic goes.
Sayorj: That verses don't say-state-uphold that religion is illogical.
Daniel: Deanr`, nah, you need to repent of your bad education.
Sayorj: lol
Grapey: Daniel, but God will give man understanding when asked for.
Daniel: Grapey, yes.
Sayorj: Frankly at the moment you're mistaken, Daniel, and Deanr`'s position is correct.
Grapey: Okay, I understand what you are saying now.
Daniel: Sayorj, you also need to repent.
Sayorj: For your ignorance? ;o) And you won't do it for yourself?
Daniel: Don't try to rationalize it, just believe it literally for what it says.
Sayorj: Please repent.
Daniel: Christ died for all, and yet most go to hell.
Grapey: That is true.
Sayorj: You accused God for non-sense.
Deanr`: Anyway Daniel, I'd stay away from this Darwin fellow. He's leading you astray into the irrational arminian camp.
Daniel: Deanr`, we believe that arminianism also leads to hell.
Grapey: Daniel, how do you think most go to hell? And is this forever????
Daniel: Grapey, the Bible says most go to hell, and yes it's forever.
Deanr`: I don't think you have a good grasp on what arminianism is.
Grapey: Daniel, narrow is the way but all will hear truth.
Daniel: All know the truth, but few believe it. vii
Grapey: I don't think God created his creation children to kill them. I think the opposite that they will all make it.
Daniel: .rom 9 22
Barnabas: KJV Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [fitted: or, made up]
Grapey: Well He uses vessels against vessels for destruction.
Sayorj: If n but are subjective in reason. :o)
Grapey: Sharpening.
Sayorj: But ah you don't believe in reason.
Deanr`: Daniel, yes, God created vessels for destruction.
Grapey: IF ..... God be willing. This is a what IF.
Sayorj: IF - not sure.
Grapey: If he decides too.
Sayorj: And if he doesn't do that. Both options remain open.
Daniel: .mat 7 13
Grapey: Yes.
Barnabas: KJV Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [strait: or, narrow]
Sayorj: Therefore if n but are subjective. :o)
Grapey: Destruction of the flesh or the spirit.
Sayorj: And don't tell Daniel that this verse mean - don't reason. lol Both are subject to God, Grapey.
Grapey: Yes.
Sayorj: I.e, body and soul. He can punish or He can forgive as He will.
Grapey: Daniel, what do you think the 1000 years in revelations is about?
Daniel: It means Christ will rule earth for 1000 years.
Sayorj: o_O
Grapey: And Satan is loosed viii for what purpose?
Daniel: After that, there will be a rebellion ix and Christ will destroy the earth. x
Grapey: Satan will go after the nations. But during that 1000 years while he is in the pit something happens because this is after the first resurrection.
Daniel: Right.
Grapey: Daniel, keep coming here and sharing with us - this is a good discussion for all. Deanr asks some tough questions and discussion abounds. I appreciate the discussion and the input from all.
Sayorj: Yes good discussion is good. After-all we learn everyday.
Grapey: Yes I agree.
Sayorj: And beside these theological-differences - there are many theological-agreements like obeying will of God.
Grapey: Daniel, are you new here or under a different nick?
Sayorj: Doing good and avoiding-evil/sin etc.
Deanr`: Daniel, how did you get connected with Darwin Fish?
Sayorj: So believers if obey the teachings wouldn't have anything to fear.
Grapey: Sayorj, yes not one hair will be harmed.
Sayorj: I think, it's in best-interest of believers to focus on self-correction every-day.
Daniel: Deanr`, I found him on the internet.
Sayorj: Well frankly anyone telling you - don't reason - is your enemy. Or more correctly don't make-sense to me.
Daniel: God is your enemy. xi
Deanr`: Daniel, think about this for a moment. He started a church named "A True Church", which is a stand-alone denomination who condemns the teachings of all other churches.
Daniel: Most other.
Sayorj: Well I think that attitude is common in all extremist-sectarian groups - they condemn even kill other co-believers.
Deanr`: So.... think of the larger picture here. Nobody else had the truth from the time of Christ.... until Darwin Fish woke up to it.
Daniel: No, that is not our claim.
Sayorj: lol
Deanr`: That IS his claim.
Daniel: No it isn't.
Deanr`: http://atruechurch.info/darwin.html
Daniel: We don't know of any others in the truth; that doesn't mean we say there aren't any others.
Sayorj: Well never visited this link but this time. :o)
Sayorj clicks
Deanr`: Who else does Darwin say has his understanding of scripture?
Daniel: We don't know any other churches.
Deanr`: Exactly.
Daniel: Who else was saved besides Noah?
Deanr`: Thank you for affirming what I just said. Darwin Fish = Noah of our time.
Daniel: That's not our claim.
Deanr`: You just made the comparison yourself.
Daniel: I asked a question.
Deanr`: Right, which is the comparison.
Daniel: If it happens that we are the only ones in the truth, that wouldn't be exceptional.
Deanr`: You don't see this as a red flag that you should be concerned about?
Daniel: No.
Deanr`: Okay, well, I can't help you then.
Daniel: The Bible says very few will believe. It should be a red flag to others that they share beliefs with so many.
Deanr`: That is true, but it doesn't say the truth will be hidden from everyone until one Darwin Fish is born. You're enslaved into heresy my friend.
Daniel: It's not hidden.
Deanr`: And blinded.
Daniel: Even if there were none saved on earth, the truth is not hidden.
Deanr`: You need to get out of that cult.
Daniel: The heavens declare the glory of God. .rom 1 20
Barnabas: KJV Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [so...: or, that they may be]
Daniel: But again, we do not claim to be the only ones in the truth.
Deanr`: Well, all I can do is pray for you. You're not listening to sound reason.
Daniel: Your prayer is an abomination.
Grapey: Eight souls were saved. .1pet 3 20
Barnabas: KJV 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Deanr`: It's that kind of thinking that puts up self defense measures that prevent objective self examination (2Cor 13:5 xii).
Grapey: There were kind by kind by sevens as well.
Daniel: Deanr`, I am taking your criticism very seriously, but you do not back up your claim with Scripture. You are asking me to instead rely on my own understanding.
Deanr`: At any rate, it's your choice, your eternity. God is rational. His Word is rational. Proper understanding is rational, and can only be rational, else, it's irrational and untrue. When someone interprets scripture that doesn't make sense, then you should reject it until you can find out it does make sense.
Grapey: .gen 6 19
Barnabas: KJV Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
Deanr`: And by the way, John MacArthur preaches truth.
Daniel: No he doesn't.
Deanr`: It sounds like Darwin had some other kind of run-in with MacArthur and now he's using the Dobson thing to discredit everything about JMAC. Which is childish.
Mouser: Calvinist are not reliable in the area of truthfulness to the Gosple of Christ... Most organized religions like to use God/Salvation/Damnation as tools of control over their congregations.
Deanr`: MacArthur can be overbearing, so it was probably a personality conflict of some kind.
Mouser: They use western thought and understanding to tell us what a particularly Jewish book means.
Deanr`: Things to do. Laters.
Mouser: Grapey - is close the truth.. she really does her studies.. and unlike some - does not practice condemnation.. of others.
Mouser: Of course Deanr` runs away when someone that is better studied in the word of God comes along.. and not locked into the false doctrines of Calvinism.
Darwin: They did not die in a state in which they “access by faith into this grace” (Romans 5:2). The grace is there. The payment is made (John 1:29), even for those who have been made to be caught and destroyed (2 Peter 2:1 “bought”, 12). But, they didn't believe (“by faith”). Without true faith in God's Word, there is no “access” (Romans 5:2; John 3:16 “believes”).
- Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
Darwin: Hebrews 10:29 “counted the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified” (Hebrews 10:29; John 15:1-6; Romans 11:21-22)
- Romans 9:
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
- Romans 9:
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Darwin: Actually, the wicked presently go to Hades (e.g. Luke 16:19-31). In the future, Hades will give up those people, all will be resurrected, and the final judgment of the lake of fire is where they go, along with Hades (Rev 20:11-15; 21:8).
- Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
- Revelation 20:
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
- Revelation 20:
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
- Revelation 21:
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
- James 4:
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
- 2 Corinthians 13:
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
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