Daniel P. Barron

Don't look now, but you believe in limited atonement.

Tuesday, January 8, 2019

A calvinist said the A True Church article on Calvinism doesn't accurately represent his perspective. I showed Darwin the log, and he provided commentary which has been added as footnotes.

Deanr`: If Calvinism leads us to hell, we'll all be in hell.
Daniel: I won't be.
Deanr`: Yeah you will. There is no gospel without Calvinism. Calvinism *is* the gospel.
Daniel: Check this out http://www.atruechurch.info/calvinarmin.html
Deanr`: Check out https://www.amazon.com/Potters-Freedom-Reformation-Rebuttal-Geislers/dp/1879737434
Actually, a better beginner's book that I'd recommend is "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul.
And then from there "Holiness of God" by the same author.
It's a teaching on what the bible teaches by solid Christian theologian.
Daniel: You believe in limited attonement?
Deanr`: Of course
tzip: Can't let just ANYBODY into heaven! Must keep the riff-raff out.
Daniel: Even though the Bible clearly says Christ died for the whole world.
tzip: Daniel, it's "efficient" vs "sufficient". Jesus dieing was "sufficient" for the whole world but just "efficient" for Deanr` and ilk.
Deanr`: Will some, if not most, people end up in hell?
Daniel: Most people go to hell.
Deanr`: Did Jesus pay for their sins?
Daniel: Christ died for people who go to hell, yes.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle - I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying - a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-7)

Deanr`: If he paid for their sins, why are they being punished?
Daniel: Because they don't believe.
kissa: In my branch of 'christianity' (although seems I'm not saved) all good kind people go to heaven .... hell is murderers child abusers.
Deanr`: So a murderer who rejects Jesus.... does he pay for his murder in hell?
Daniel: kissa, none are good.
Daniel: Deanr`, he is destroyed for his wickedness which is that he did not believe.
kissa: You seem to preach from the somber side of 'Good News'.
Deanr`: Does he pay for the sin of murder, that's the question.
Daniel: I don't know.i
Deanr`: Really?
Daniel:

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Deanr`: Well, the bible says he pays for his own sin, which means his sin wasn't paid by Jesus.
Daniel: Those who do not ask to be forgiven are not forgiven.
Deanr`: It's sufficient for the whole world, yes. The passage is about the worth of the payment, NOT the effectiveness of it. So in other words, Jesus debt payment was sufficient to pay for the entire worlds sins. But it's not effective until belief.
tzip: Daniel, it's "efficient" vs "sufficient". Jesus dieing was "sufficient" for the whole world but just "efficient" for Deanr` and ilk. HERE'S THE READER's DIGEST VERSION, Daniel: "efficient" (only works) for The Elect.
Deanr`: Does that make sense?
Daniel:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Deanr`: Right, same thing.
Daniel: No, you are not making sense.
Daniel: The Bible says one thing and you say another.
Deanr`: Think about it, if what you were saying was true, then universalism would be true, NOBODY would end up in hell regardless of belief.
Daniel: I don't follow
Deanr`: If Jesus EFFECTIVELY paid for all sins, then all sins would be paid for... and unbelievers, whose sin is unbelief (plus their other sins) would be saved.
Daniel: But the Bible says they are not saved, and that Christ paid for them.
Deanr`: Exactly!
Daniel: You accept one and not the other. You must believe the entire Bible, not just some parts.
Deanr`: They are not saved because they forfeit the benefits of the atonement because of their unbelief. This is the whole of scripture.
Daniel: The Bible says "whole world" and Deanr` says "not whole world."
Deanr`: The issue is intent on the Author's meaning. You're saying the meaning is A, I'm saying the meaning is B. We both agree the words are true.
Daniel:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Deanr`: Again, same issue.
Daniel: The Bible says "everyone" and Deanr` says "not everyone."
Deanr`: You're saying the meaning is A, I'm saying the meaning is B. We both agree the words are true.
tzip: pssst..... Daniel, if you want a REAL complaint, have the good Deanr` explain that 1. you can't believe on your own, you have to be 'regenerated' 2. you WILL be regenerated and WILL believe if you're "of the elect" chosen from before the foundation of the world 3. if you are NOT "of the elect chosen from before the foundation of the world" you will NOT be regenerated, will NOT believe and will NOT be saved. You have absolutely nothing to say about it.
barabbas`: Think of it this way. If I buy you a ticket to the superbowl and leave it at will call. If you don't pick it up, you don't get into the game. Christ has bought the tickets to heaven, but we must call on him to get ours. So, while everyone has a ticket waiting for them, not everyone will do what it takes to get the ticket.
Daniel: Oh i agree with him on there not being free will, that much the calvinists have correct.
tzip: Deanr` tells me that's hyper-calvinism and not legitimate but it's the only possible conclusion. Okay, I'm mum now.
Deanr`: No, the difference in your view is you're making the same argument that Thatcher was making, or what Paul asked rhetorically in Romans 9. If God caused me to sin, why am I at fault?ii
Daniel:

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

You should check out the article I linked, because it's not your typical anti-calvinist approach, and much shorter than a book.
Deanr`: I've read it.
Daniel: You read the article already?
Deanr`: I've seen it before. FYI, I've been discussing this for over 20 years online.
tzip: I don't make that argument. I don't think God causes anybody to sin, nor did he "cause" Adam to sin.... er... sort of. It's the arbitrariness (I KNOW I KNOW, god isn't arbitrary) of the Calvinist position that singes my fringes. Why can't EVERYBODY be judged, face all the things they did wrong, then move on into heaven? Why be so elitist about it??
Daniel: You've heard of atruechurch? that's amazing!
Deanr`: I've read every conceivable Arminian (semi-pelagian) argument.
Daniel: Oh well that article is also against arminianism.
Deanr`: Then the article isn't from an educated source.
Daniel: Why don't you read it!
Deanr`: Okay, I'll humor you.
Deanr`: Okay, the page is long.. post specifically an objection from that page that you think is a valid argument against Calvinism.
Daniel: I guess you should start at the limited atonement section.
Deanr`: The premise of the objection is incorrect. The objection says "Calvinists have insisted that Christ in His death provided atonement only for the elect..." Christ PROVIDED atonement to everyone. So right off the bat, there's a misunderstanding of the Reformed view.
Daniel: interesting
tzip: Then why is regeneration necessary before anyone can believe? The atonement is only EFFECTIVE for those God regenerates. There are bunches of us he isn't regenerating, so.....
Deanr`: The issue is WHO the atonement is effective with. We both agree that only those who believe will be saved, right? So the real question is, the cause of faith.
Daniel: Well, some people are saved that will go to hell. You might disagree with that one as well.
Deanr`: Yes, I do disagree with that, but let's save that for another time.
Deanr`: What is the cause of faith?
Daniel: I think I've heard enough from you on the limited atonement issue; you claim that our article doesn't describe what you believe.
Chemist:

some people are saved that will go to hell

Uhm. How can one be "saved" yet still go to hell?
Daniel: Chemist, they lose salvation.
Deanr`: Chemist: I'm assuming he is talking about those who have fallen away
Chemist: So then they aren't "saved" anymore, right?
Daniel: Right.
Chemist: Yeah, I was confused, I thought you meant someone who is saved, but at the same time, goes to hell anyway.
Deanr`: Correct, your article is either misrepresenting the Reformed view, or is being too loose with word meanings.
Daniel: I'll bring this up with the author of the article.
Deanr`: So back to the question on the cause of faith? Is it man or God?
Daniel: God, who is a man, so both.
Deanr`: So the person who rejects Christ... didn't receive faith from God?
Daniel: Right.
Deanr`: Don't look now, but you believe in limited atonement.
Daniel: If that's how you define it.
Deanr`: Yes, limited atonement means God grants faith to those He has chosen. He doesn't provide it to others.iii Actually, what he provides is spiritual regeneration (born again) that results in a desire that produces faith.
Deanr` feels like he's had the mike way too long. Time to pass it to someone else.

  1. Darwin: Answer is "Yes." Ecclesiastes 12:
    14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
    Including every secret thing,
    Whether good or evil.

  2. Romans 9:
    19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

  3. Darwin: That's a lie. It's related and based on this concept, but "limited atonement" means just what it says. They do NOT believe Christ died for even those who go to hell. I give a quote in my article of a classic limited atonement argument one very well respected (John Owen) by Calvinists. He clearly says, "Scripture nowhere saith Christ died for all men." That's the issue at hand.

    This is the doctrine of ELECTION. Not the doctrine of LIMITED ATONEMENT. But, for the Calvinist they are inseparable. They pervert the doctrine of ELECTION into a perverted view of the ATONEMENT (the death of Christ for the sins of man). This conversation you had is typical. They use reason (human logic) rather than Scripture to argue for a limited atonement. Next time simply focus on FOR WHOM CHRIST DIED. They will NEVER admit He died for the SINS of those who end up in hell. That's how it is a LIMITED atonement. He did NOT atone for the sins of those who end up in hell, according to Calvinist Limited Atonement doctrine.

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