Daniel P. Barron

God didn't explicitly say anything against it.

Saturday, February 2, 2019

This log has been modified for spelling and formatting. It has been reviewed by Darwin Fish, and his comments have been added as footnotes.

That One Catholic Girl: No one talks here anymore. Have y'all lost faith?

Daniel: Are you catholic?

That One Catholic Girl: I wanna say no and do some sarcastic response but I can't think of any currently but yes I am catholic.

Daniel: Catholicism leads to hell. Repent!

That One Catholic Girl: :rolling_eyes: No. The body and blood of Christ first off is more a metaphor type of thing. Polygamy really is stupid; you only need one person to love. Especially since people living longer now a days. Also question do other divisions of Christianity have nuns or monks? Or is it just Catholics?

Daniel: Stupid isn't the issue; is polygyny wicked? No.i Also, people live shorter lives than they used to.

Hunter8: Rose Beckett,ii It's been rough for me recently.
That One Catholic Girl: It's disgusting, to be honest. And a double standard. And people back in ancient times lived to maybe their 40s now people can live to a 100.

Daniel: Indeed it is a double standard, and it is a Biblical standard. And people in the Bible lived for hundreds of years; now we are lucky to live to 100.

bsm1379: What is a double standard?

Daniel: Polygyny: a man having multiple wives.

bsm1379: People in the times before Noah lived hundreds of years. Not after. Nowhere in the Bible is polygamy condoned. But the Bible does say God made marriage between a man and a woman. It may not be a sin per-se, but it is never condoned.

Daniel: Indeed one marriage is between one man and one woman, but the Bible doesn't say a man can't have more than one marriage. And it is literally condoned; David had many wives and was called righteous in all that he did.iii

bsm1379: He also committed adultery. Just because he was a righteous man doesn't mean he was flawless.

Daniel: It says that was the one exception.

bsm1379: Where does it say that was the one exception? Danieliv did not go his whole life sinning only once.

Daniel: 1 Kings 15:

5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

bsm1379: That sounds like it's saying he didn't go directly against God's orders except in the matter of Uriah.

Daniel: Right.. so then it wasn't going against God to have multiple wives.

bsm1379: Not against the Mosaic law no. That doesn't mean God likes it. Was it you who wrote the article about masturbation? I can't seem to find it now.

Daniel: Yes, here it is.

bsm1379: Thanks. (ESV) Titus 1:

5v This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.

Daniel: That verse doesn't say it's wrong to have multiple wives.

bsm1379: I didn't say it was wrong. I said it wasn't preferred.

Daniel: Being married at all isn't preferred. And yet an elder must have exactly one wife.

bsm1379: I don't believe the single life is preferred. And the point of him having one wife is to fulfill the requirement of being "above reproach". I think that if the single life were to be preferred, deacons, bishops, and elders wouldn't be expected to be married once. As in they would be expected to abstain entirely.
ysys9: Paul has a word about that.... He says it's better to not marry. I'm saying this as a married man.
bsm1379: I believe he is saying that in the context of marrying due to lust. Am I mistaken?

Daniel: 1 Corinthians 7:

25 Now concerning virgins: I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy has made trustworthy. 26 I suppose therefore that this is good because of the present distress—that it is good for a man to remain as he is: 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have trouble in the flesh, but I would spare you.

ysys9: ^ He says that it's better to not marry at all but if you're going to be a degenerate you should marry instead of being sexually immoral. And almost no one sees marriage as a requirement for being an elder, just a lack of polyamorism.vi
bsm1379: Paul at the beginning of that passage said that was not from God and just his opinion.
ysys9: Sure but I agree with him.
bsm1379: That's fine. I don't have any qualms there. My point is simply is that it isn't a matter of preference from God.

Daniel: Marriage is indeed a requirement to be an elder, as is having at least two children all of whom must be saved. Speaking of God's preference, He is a polygynist. He is married to the churchvii (which is multiple people) and also to Israelviii (which is also multiple people)ix

bsm1379: The only way you can come to that conclusion is by inferring it from the fact that God didn't explicitly say anything against it.x And the church is meant to be a single unified entity.

Daniel: Okay, but He's still married to both the Church and Israel.

bsm1379: Even if so, He's God. That's not necessarily saying it's okay for us to do the same thing. God sent a bear to attack kids who made fun of Elijah.xi That doesn't mean we should go slaughter kids.

Daniel: Be content in whatever you do. Be content in being single; be content in being married to one woman; be content in being married to multiple women.

bsm1379: I'm not saying it's necessarily against God. I'm only saying we can't claim to know with certainty that God likes it.

  1. See our article on polygamy.
  2. "That One Catholic Girl."
  3. Darwin: It would have been good to mention that God explicitly commanded David as king not to "multiply wives for himself" (Deut 17:17). And as you quoted, "David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life" (1 Kings 15:5). Thus, God declares via David's example polygamy is "right in the eyes of the Lord." I also like Proverbs 18:22 "He who finds a wife finds a good thing, And obtains favor from the LORD."
  4. Is this a typo? Did he mean to say "David" ? Did he mean me? Or did he mean the prophet? I don't know.
  5. Titus 1:
    5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.

  6. Polyamory: "more than one loves/lovers."
  7. Ephesians 5:
    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

  8. Jeremiah 3:
    14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the Lord; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

  9. Darwin: God is also married to the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:9).
  10. Yes! Exactly!!! If God doesn't explicitly forbid something, it's wrong for us to say it is wrong!
  11. 2 Kings 2:
    23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”

    24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

6 Responses

  1. This log has been modified for spelling, formatting, and offensive language; no meaning has been changed, although some lines have been removed for being part of an unrelated conversation.

    In response to this very article:

    Ross: Look under adultery.
    Fen: Daniel, I think it's pretty clear that God's plan, from Adam and Eve, was for man to have one wife. He did explicitly dictate that kings in particular not take many wives.
    Ross: consider the problem Abraham created when he took a 2nd wife.

    Daniel: It's clear that He never forbid a man having multiple wives.

    Ross: Look under adultery.

    Daniel:

    Darwin: It would have been good to mention that God explicitly commanded David as king not to "multiply wives for himself" (Deut 17:17). And as you quoted, "David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life" (1 Kings 15:5). Thus, God declares via David's example polygamy is "right in the eyes of the Lord." I also like Proverbs 18:22 "He who finds a wife finds a good thing, And obtains favor from the LORD."

    It's not adultery for a man to have more than one wife.

    Ross: Sure it is.

    Daniel: Show me where the Bible says such a thing.

    Mickey52: That is true, instead of listing all the things you can't do, God told us the one thing we can do. First God created the man and woman, then God said, A (singluar) Man shall leave his mothers hearth and A (singular) Woman shall leave her fathers home and the TWO shall become ONE.
    Ross: It's the definition of the term ... unless you are redefining it.

    Daniel: Right, one marriage is between one man and one woman. Ross, it's not God's definition.

    Ross: It is.

    Daniel: Show me where the Bible says such a definition.

    Ross: Try reading the 10 commandments and then how God judges His law in the judgments
    Fen: Daniel, Hermeneutics teaches us that, when interpreting scripture, it's important to discern whether a passage is merely descriptive or if it's normative. Given God's design for marriage exemplified in Adam and Eve, a plan reaffirmed by Jesus in Matthew 19:4, it's clear that God's design for marriage as one man and one woman is normative.
    Mickey52: !niv gen 2:24
    BibleBot: Ge2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. (NIV)

    Daniel: Ross, I've read the 10 commandments; they don't say it's adultery for a man to have multiple wives. Fen, how then do you address Darwin's point that i pasted above?

    Mickey52: !niv gen2:23-24
    BibleBot: Ge2:23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."
    BibleBot: Ge2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. (NIV)

    Daniel: Mickey52, and yet after that declaration, king David was told not to "multiply wives for himself" and he had multiple wives and was called "right in everything that he did."

    Ross: !kjv exo 20:14
    BibleBot: Exo20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. (KJV)
    Fen: Daniel, to quote 1 Kings 15:5 as God condoning every action taken by David would be absolutely wrong. We see from the passages themselves that David paid dearly for his sin with Bathsheba, so much so that their first child died. God did not let David's sin go unpunished.

    Daniel: Ross, adultery is taking another man's wife.

    Mickey52: Daniel What is your point? That, like Adam, men disobey God.

    Daniel: Fen, the case of Uriah the Hittite is listed as the one exception. Mickey52, the point is God called David having multiple wives "right."

    Fen: Daniel, David throughout his writings in Psalms admits to and laments his many sins.
    Mickey52: Daniel Did you read what Fen posted about the punishment David endured, the death of his firstborn?

    Daniel: Fen, did he lament having multiple wives? Mickey52, that was specifically for his adultery and murder regarding Uriah the Hittite.

    Fen: Daniel, yes, he did. He wrote one of his psalms directly about the issue with Bathsheba and Uriah.
    Mickey52 wonders if David had it to do all over again, would he have forgone multiple wives to have his firstborn live and carry on the family name?

    Daniel: Fen, he had other wives that weren't already married to other men. Mickey52, he didn't lose his firstborn for having multiple wives.

    Mickey52: Daniel: I get it, you are looking for an excuse for your sin. you want to commit adultery and are looking for justification for it from God. Sorry, but sin is never justified.

    Daniel: My sin? I have no wives.

    Fen: Daniel, I've said all I have to say on the topic. God's plan is clear, as is the reaffirmation by Jesus in the New Testament. You're attempting to twist a single verse into a blanket acceptance by God of David's many failings. You're either going to listen to clearly laid out scripture, or you're not. Up to you.
    Fen has to go process 205 images from today.
    Fen wanders off to get lost in Lightroom.

    Daniel: Fen and Mickey52, you are both going to hell.

    Fen: [laughing] @ "you are both going to hell." Daniel, that right there makes it clear that you're either a troll or just a brain damaged piece of garbage. Either way, welcome to ignore.
    Mickey52: Daniel: If you say so. Thanks for the warning.

    Daniel: Mickey52, you're welcome. May God save you both!

  2. Anonymous

    Hi Daniel,

    I agree largely with what is said here, what I'd like to know is why do you say these gentlemen are going to hell at the end? Is this based on the premise that belief in Jesus is belief in scripture?

    Thanks

  3. Hi Anonymous. I say they are going to hell because they do not believe the Word of God (John 1:1) which is Christ. (John 1:14) Instead they add to it (Proverbs 30:5-6) by calling good evil. (Isaiah 5:20)

  4. This log has been modified for spelling and formatting. In response to this article:

    closedanger: That was for a reason Daniel. One Wife.

    Daniel: hm?

    closedanger: Places, times, context.

    Daniel: In no place time or context did God forbid men from having multiple wives in general.

    TrollT: "Go forth and multiply". Compare Manifest Destiny.
    closedanger: At One point in Time, it was Optimal, and still is.
    TrollT: I suspect it is irresponsible.
    closedanger: No one can take care of 9 screaming cats. This is not the breeding age and you are not Hebrew. What was then is not Now.

    Daniel: It is not forbidden now.

    closedanger: For what Purpose would a king take a Concubine other than to keep a Dynasty?

    Daniel: Love.

    TrollT: Daniel, To whom?
    closedanger: bull
    TrollT: Some churches forbid it.

    Daniel: TrollT, to anyone except the leader of a church.

    TrollT: Some scriptures forbid it.

    Daniel: Most churches lead to hell.

    closedanger: I don't want it
    closedanger: NO

    Daniel: Then don't have it.

    closedanger: NO

  5. [...] It has been reviewed by Darwin Fish. Svarthol: Heh, I love it, Daniel. Craig: I personally liked footnote IV. Svarthol: [...]

  6. [...] The chat goes on for a little bit about trivial matters. I come back to share a link to a comment I had posted to another article of mine; the comment is a quoted log from the same chat this current article is from. Daniel: http://danielpbarron.com/2019/god-didnt-explicitly-say-anything-against-it/#comment-1925 [...]

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