criticallyred: Alright so how do I not go to hell?
Daniel: see "What Must I Do To Be Saved?"
criticallyred: Oh ok. Well I already trust in Christ for my salvation.
criticallyred: So why do we condemn Spurgeon here?
Sword: criticallyred, Charles Spurgeon is an ecumenical false teacher.
criticallyred: He’s in heaven for sure lol
Daniel: no he isn’t
Daniel: false teachers go to hell
criticallyred: Why? He had faith on Jesus and he showed that with his life
Daniel: no he didn’t
A little while later..
criticallyred: Do you believe Christians are capable of sin to any degree?
Daniel: yes, the flesh is sin i and we sin ii daily, but we repent iii
criticallyred: Ok. But I don’t understand the notion of condemning someone whose theology is only marginally off in non-essential areas.
Daniel: there are no non essentials
criticallyred: If I believe Spurgeon and Wesley are in heaven do I go to hell?
Daniel: yes, red
criticallyred: Why do I go to hell?
Daniel: because those people are false teachers and to think they aren't false is to agree with the false things they teach
criticallyred: What if you disregard those false things they teach?
Daniel: then you should say they are in hell
criticallyred: But they aren’t
Daniel: how can someone teach false things unrepentantly and not go to hell?
Daniel: they have bad fruit (Matthew 7:15-20)
Scripture: Matthew 7:15-20 - New King James Version (NKJV)<15> "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. <16> You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? <17> Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. <18> A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. <19> Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. <20> Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Daniel: fruit is the things we say (Luke 6:39-45)
Scripture: Luke 6:39-45 - New King James Version (NKJV)<39> And He spoke a parable to them: "Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? <40> A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. <41> And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? <42> Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye. <43> "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. <44> For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. <45> A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Daniel: their ways are destructive (2 Peter 2:2)
Scripture: 2 Peter 2:2 - New King James Version (NKJV)<2> And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
Daniel: they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4)
Scripture: 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - New King James Version (NKJV)<3> If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
Daniel: they sneak in unnoticed (Jude 1:3-4)
Scripture: Jude 3-4 - New King James Version (NKJV)<3> Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. <4> For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Daniel: they claim to know Christ but they don't do as He says (1 John 2:4)
Scripture: 1 John 2:4 - New King James Version (NKJV)<4> He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Daniel: believers will not listen to these men (John 10:4-5)
Scripture: John 10:4-5 - New King James Version (NKJV)<4> And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. <5> Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
Daniel: these men are in it for the money (John 10:11-13)
Scripture: John 10:11-13 - New King James Version (NKJV)<11> "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. <12> But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. <13> The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
Daniel: believers should not fellow with or consider these men to be saved, but rather we should expose their darkness (Ephesians 5:11)
Scripture: Ephesians 5:11 - New King James Version (NKJV)<11> And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
criticallyred: But I trust in Christ for my salvation. How can I be condemned by simply being wrong about the spiritual state of someone else?
Daniel: criticallyred, do you fear God? iv
criticallyred: Yes
Daniel: He terrifies you?
criticallyred: In a sense. But I don’t need to be afraid of him as a judge since I am protected under Christ’s sacrifice.
Daniel:that would be correctv
Daniel: do you believe that God kills people?
criticallyred: He has the power to take life as he pleases.
Daniel: does he use that power?
criticallyred: Yes he uses it
Some time later..
Daniel: the
manyvi Gods that are God, they are all the same God vii
Daniel: they do not oppose each other
criticallyred: What are the names of these gods
Daniel: 1 John 5:8
Scripture: 1 John 5:8 - New King James Version (NKJV)<8> And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
Daniel: there are many names
Daniel: Wisdom, viii Jerusalem, ix the Word of God, x Jealous, xi I Am, xii Yevah, xiii Joshua xiv Christ
criticallyred: I understand the trinity - that god is three distinct persons of a common essence. But this is ridiculous. How can you prove that each of what you mentioned is not the same god.
Daniel: they are the same God
Daniel: you call them "persons" but those people are Gods
Daniel: all people are gods
criticallyred: They are not separate gods
Daniel: Psalm 82:6
Scripture: Psalm 82:6 - New King James Version (NKJV)<6> I said, "You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.
Daniel: they are separate and also the same
criticallyred: Provide scripture
Daniel:
אֱלהִים קְדשִׁים הוּא
You are not able to serve Yehvah, because He is Holy Gods, a Jealous God. He will not forgive your transgressions and your sins. (a more literal translation of Joshua 24:19, where both "Holy" and "Gods" are both in the plural)
Scripture: Joshua 24:19 - New King James Version (NKJV)
<19> But Joshua said to the people, "You cannot serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Daniel:
Knowledge of Holy Ones is Understanding. (a more literal translation of Proverbs 9:10b)
Daniel:
דַעַת קְדשִׁים בִּינָה
Thou shalt not revile the Gods, . . . . (Exodus 22:28, 1611 KJV)
Scripture: Exodus 22:28 - New King James Version (NKJV)
<28> "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
Daniel: John 1:1
Scripture: John 1:1 - New King James Version (NKJV)<1> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Daniel: Genesis 1:26-27
Scripture: Genesis 1:26-27 - New King James Version (NKJV)<26> Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." <27> So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Daniel: Genesis 3:22
Scripture: Genesis 3:22 - New King James Version (NKJV)<22> Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—
Daniel: Genesis 11:5-9
Scripture: Genesis 11:5-9 - New King James Version (NKJV)<5> But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. <6> And the Lord said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. <7> Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." <8> So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. <9> Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
Daniel: Isaiah 6:8
Scripture: Isaiah 6:8 - New King James Version (NKJV)<8> Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?"
Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."criticallyred: “Us” could mean the trinity
Daniel: the trinity is a lie. God is not limited to those three
criticallyred: God is three, and also he is not limited.
Daniel: God is more than the Father Son and Holy Spirit; He is also the city of Jerusalem, and Wisdom, and the three men who visited Abram, and the horses in Zechariah, and the man of war who visited Joshua xv
Daniel: God is also heaven, the kingdom of heaven, the throne in the kingdom xvi
Daniel: He's also the seven spirits of God
- Romans 7:
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
- 1 John 1:
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
- Luke 9:
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
- See "The True Fear of God" ^
Darwin: That is incorrect. We don't fear condemnation (1 John 4:17-18), but we are still afraid of Him (Luke 12:4-5).
VII. True Fear Is Confident
In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence, and His children will have a place of refuge. (Proverbs 14:26; see also Psalm 112:7-8)
The true fear of God does not produce cowardice, but rather boldness, as Proverbs 28:1 says,
The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion.
Cowards go to hell (Revelation 21:8), but the righteous, i.e. those who fear God, are in no way cowards, but are rather bold as a lion. God fearing people are able to live out serious confidence even in the face of horrifying circumstances. As the fear of the Lord instructs,
My son, let them not depart from your eyes - keep sound wisdom and discretion; so they will be life to your soul and grace to your neck. Then you will walk safely in your way, and your foot will not stumble. When you lie down, you will not be afraid; yes, you will lie down and your sleep will be sweet. Do not be afraid of sudden terror, nor of trouble from the wicked when it comes; for the Lord will be your confidence, and will keep your foot from being caught. (Proverbs 3:21-26)
Sleeping is a very vulnerable time. Someone could sneak upon you and kill you (as in Judges 4:21 or 2 Samuel 4:5-12). But those who fear God fear not. They have sweet sleep. They have peace (Isaiah 26:3; Philippians 4:6-7), and have confidence even in the face of sudden terror or trouble from the wicked. And, even if they fail in this, they turn back to it. As David wrote,
Whenever I am afraid, I will trust in You. In God (I will praise His word), in God I have put my trust; I will not fear. What can flesh do to me? (Psalm 56:3-4)
The answer? Nothing. Nothing that God Himself has not already decreed (Isaiah 46:10). For,
The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them. (Psalm 34:7)
So those who fear the Lord have great confidence (Proverbs 14:26), even in the face of the most important and most potentially horrifying time, that is, the eternal judgment of God. Those who fear God have great boldness (Ephesians 3:12; Hebrews 4:14-16; 10:19). As 1 John 4:17-18 declares,
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
Those who fear God believe in His mercy (Psalm 103:11-18). They believe in His forgiveness (John 3:16), and they know they have eternal life (1 John 5:13). They have boldness concerning "the day of judgment," because they do not fear condemnation (Romans 8:1). They do not fear torment. They look forward to their reward (Revelation 22:12-14), because they know God is; and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6; 9:27-28).
The fear cast out in 1 John 4:17-18 is the fear that involves torment (verse 18). It is the fear of condemnation. It is not the fear of God that is cast out. If it was, wisdom and knowledge would be cast out (Job 28:28)! No, it is actually the fear of God that casts out other fears, like the fear of man (Isaiah 8:11-13; Psalm 27:1; Proverbs 29:25), cowardice (2 Timothy 1:7), and the fear of death (Romans 8:15; Hebrews 2:14-15), which includes the fear of condemnation (the second death, Revelation 21:8).
Those who are afraid of God fear the one who "after He has killed, has the power to cast into hell" (Luke 12:4-5). Therefore, they conduct their time on this earth in fear (Romans 11:20-22; 1 Peter 1:17) being greatly motivated by this terror (2 Corinthians 5:11) to set their hope completely on the grace of God (1 Peter 1:13). They are diligent to enter His rest (Hebrews 4:11), because they know there is no other way to escape the wrath of the Almighty (John 3:36), except to fear Him and trust in His salvation (Psalm 119:166). For this is man's all, as it is written:
Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
Job, a man who was terrified of God (Job 23:13-16), had this confidence that comes with the fear of God. He spoke of it in Job 19:25-27.
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!
Job longed for the day he would see God. He had no shame concerning that day, but rather great confidence, like David who wrote in Psalm 61,
I will abide in Your tabernacle forever. (Psalm 61:4)
This is the confidence of all who fear Him (Psalm 65:5). Since they fear Him (Luke 12:4-5), they need not fear, as Jesus says in Luke 12:6-7 (see also Matthew 10:29-31), because they "hope in His mercy" (Psalm 33:18; see also Exodus 20:18-20; 1 Samuel 12:20-25; Matthew 17:5-7). As Proverbs 1:33 says,
Whoever listens to me will dwell safely, and will be secure, without fear of evil.
Darwin: I wouldn't use the term many, since Scripture doesn't (that I can think of) and I am not sure just how many there are.
- See "He Is Holy Gods. VI. All The Fullness." ^
- See "God In The Feminine" ^
- See "Jerusalem Is God" ^
- Revelation 19:
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
- Exodus 34:
14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),
- Exodus 3:
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
- Ezekiel 14:
9 And the prophet who is deceived and speaks a word, I the Lord [Yehvâh] deceived that prophet and will stretch out my hand against him and will cause him to be destroyed from the midst of my people Israel.
- Acts 7:
45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David,
Hebrews 4:
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
Darwin: That wasn't necessarily another (like in addition). He could simply be one of the three who visited Abraham (Genesis 18).
- See "The Throne, Heaven, and the Kingdom Are God." ^