Daniel P. Barron

Paul didn't follow sola scriptura. Why should you?

Monday, January 28, 2019

This log has been modified for spelling and formatting.

Arsenius: John Chrysostom, Daniel, really? I'm pretty sure he didn't believe anything you believe.
DEATH WIZARD: Who's that?
Arsenius:

"When the word says, 'This is My Body,' be convinced of it and believe it, and look at it with the eyes of the mind. For Christ did not give us something tangible, but even in His tangible things all is intellectual. So too with Baptism: the gift is bestowed through what is a tangible thing, water; but what is accomplished is intellectually perceived: the birth and the renewal. If you were incorporeal He would have given you those incorporeal gifts naked; but since the soul is intertwined with the body, He hands over to you in tangible things that which is perceived intellectually. How many now say, 'I wish I could see His shape, His appearance, His garments, His sandals.' Only look! You see Him! You touch Him! You eat Him!" -"Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew" [82,4] 370 A.D.- John Chrysostom

Daniel, Do you believe in the real presence?
Alpha: How can Jesus be present when he has been received into Heaven next to the Father?
Arsenius: Because Jesus said so. Jesus is omnipresent. It's like asking how the Father can answer everyone's prayers at once.
Alpha: Jesus is Heaveni right now according to Jesus. How can Jesus be omnipresent if he is flesh? (KJV) John 16:

7ii Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

(KJV) Acts 1:

11iii Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Arsenius:

"That ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you." [Quoting Paul in 2 Thessalonians]iv It appears then that he used at that time to deliver many things also not in writing, which he shows too in many other places. But at that time he only delivered them, whereas now he adds an explanation of their reason: thus both rendering the one sort, the obedient, more steadfast, and pulling down the others' pride, who oppose themselves. (Homily XXVI on 1 Corinthians; commenting on 1 Cor 11:2v)

Daniel, Do you believe in oral tradition?
Alpha: Oral tradition is legit.

Daniel: No. I believe in the Bible.

Arsenius: So why did you quote John Chrysostom? He disagrees with you.

Daniel: The other guy did, and I go on to disagree with him.

Arsenius: I see. So you don't believe in (KJV) 2 Thessalonians 2:

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Daniel: By who's epistle?

Alpha: Paul.

Daniel: Yes, I believe what Paul said.

Alpha: The real question is, what are those traditions that were taught by Paul?

Daniel: They are in the Bible.

Arsenius: He says they're not.
Alpha: Who?
Arsenius: Paul says they're not in the Bible. lol
Alpha: Where?
Arsenius: Paul didn't even go only by the Bible in his letters.

Daniel: He says they are by word or by epistle, where does it say those words and epistles aren't in the Bible?

Alpha: The Bible wasn't around yet.
Arsenius: How clearer does it need to be. "Whether by spoken word or by our epistles." That means they're not in the epistles. Which means they're not in the Bible.
Alpha: "By our epistles."

Daniel: They are indeed in the Bible; you are a liar.

Alpha: epistle = letter
Arsenius: Calling people liars isn't a way to do apologetics. lol
Alpha: Thessalonians is an epistle. This isn't apologetics anyway.
Arsenius: I'm just saying.

Daniel: I'm not apologizing; I'm contending. And what are these traditions I'm supposed to follow that aren't in the Bible?

Arsenius: Yes 100%
Professor_McMannwell: Hello.
Alpha: For the record, an epistle is not an oral teaching.

Daniel: No, what are they? I'm asking you.

Alpha: Ew, a Mormon.vi
Professor_McMannwell: Isn't an epistle a letter or declaration?
Alpha: Yes.
Arsenius: Apostolic succession, asking the saints to pray, etc. Paul doesn't even follow sola scriptura. Why should you?
Professor_McMannwell: And, wow, what a nice welcome. And I thought my fellow Christians were tolerant.
Alpha: Mormons aren't Christians.vii
Arsenius: Sorry I didn't say hello back lol.
Alpha: You believe Satan is the brother of Jesus.
Professor_McMannwell: You're fine, Arsenius.
Arsenius: It's Michael not satan ain't it? Wait no Michael is the JW view. Oof, I forgot which is which.
Professor_McMannwell: And what's wrong with that, Alpha?
Alpha: Heresy.
Arsenius: Daniel, Paul didn't follow sola scriptura. Why should you?
Professor_McMannwell: How so?

Daniel: Paul is part of the scripture.

Arsenius: Yes but he didn't follow sola scriptura.

Daniel: He wrote scripture; I'm not [writing scripture].

Arsenius: What are you talking about? I'm saying that Paul referred to doctrines that aren't in the Hebrew Bible for his letters.

Daniel: And now they are in the Bible because he referred to them.

Arsenius: He says that a rock followed the Israelites out of Egyptviii but read exodus and that's not in exodus.

Alpha: That doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't sola scriptura. They were doctrines given to him by the Holy Ghost.ix

Arsenius: But the doctrine was from the Jewish oral law. Not the Hebrew Bible. Paul didn't follow sola scriptura and neither should you.

Daniel: This is such a silly argument you are making, but humor me: what are the traditions not found in the Bible that I'm supposed to be following?

Alpha: You need to cite some evidence before you tell anyone to do anything.
Professor_McMannwell: How is the belief that Jesus, Satan, and even us are all brothers and sisters heretical, Alpha?
Alpha: And why would you not rely on scripture?
Arsenius: I do rely on scripture. But not scripture alone. Daniel, I already told you a couple. And how is it silly?
Alpha: There is no where in the Bible that even hints at Jesus being the blood-relative of Satan., Arsenius, therefor it is heretical.
Arsenius: You mean, Professor_McMannwell, not me. But I would argue going only by the Bible is also heresy.

Daniel: How am i supposed to know what is good "oral tradition" when I don't know a line of true Christians following from Paul?

Professor_McMannwell: Would you say we are all children of God, Alpha?
Arsenius: You don't know the line of true Christians following from Paul because you know nothing about church history.
Alpha: Adopted children. And no of course not
Arsenius: Paul also mentions this:

"As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses" (2 Tim. 3:8x). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.xi) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.

Daniel: Who are these true christians then?

Arsenius: The ones for 2000 years. That you reject for your modern sect.

Daniel: Who?

Arsenius: Literally every Christian. Naming them is impossible, because there have been millions. And hundreds of church fathers who disagree with you on everything with thousands of writings. And you have the audacity to say each one of these great men are in hell and that anyone who doesn't follow your stupid sect is in hell, which is made up of like 30 people.
Alpha: But agree with logically incoherent catholic teaching of the eucharist.
Arsenius: So you don't believe what Jesus said? He said this is my body.
Alpha: Jesus said something different than what you interpret.
Arsenius: And every Christian for thousands of years took it literally.

Daniel: All these people you call "christian" do not believe the Bible.

Alpha: You're reading into the text.
Arsenius: So take it up with them. Every Christian for 2000 years is reading into the text. Okay. But you have the divine inspired interpretation.
Alpha: Yeah, I sure "take it up with them" when they're dead.
Arsenius: Take it up with their thousands of writings.
Alpha: And I doubt you know Christians for 2000 years have interpreted it the catholic way when the catholic church hasn't even been around for 2000 years.

Daniel: I believe the Bible; it's as simple as that.

Alpha: And even if, they still would be wrong.
Arsenius: So you have the divine revelation.
Alpha: Mormonism refuted, Professor_McMannwell.

Daniel: Well it is divine influence that has caused me to believe it, yes.

Arsenius: Jesus said, "You are Alpha, and upon this Alpha I will build my church."xii
Alpha: rock*xiii
Arsenius: Dude. I know. I'm saying that you disagree with every Christian for 2000 years. You might as well say Jesus gave you the keys.
Alpha: He has.
Arsenius: And that every Christian won't have the Holy Spirit to discern what Jesus clearly says until Holy Alpha comes along.
Alpha: He gave me the gospel.

Daniel: Not every one. I just don't know of very many. Also I don't know that it's been 2000 years.

Arsenius: Jesus died 2000 years ago. lol
Alpha: Boy. He never died he rose again. Blasphemy. lol
Professor_McMannwell: He *did* die, he just got resurrected.
Alpha: He used past tense. It sounded like he was implying Jesus is still dead.
Arsenius: Nowhere did I imply that.
Professor_McMannwell: Ah, now I see it. That's what happens when you speed-read.

Daniel: How do we know it's been 2000 years? The Bible doesn't say.

Alpha: Because it's 2000 A.D. Daniel, you moron. 2019 A.D.
UKJaguar: Let's not namecall.

Daniel: So? I don't trust any history that isn't in the Bible.

Arsenius: George Washington didn't exist guys.

Daniel: That number could be made up.

Alpha: You're killing us right now. Daniel, stop.
Arsenius: This has to be a troll. A very smart troll.xiv

Daniel: I am completely serious; it might have been more than or less than 2000 years.

Arsenius: To play us like this.
Alpha: Or just dumb.
Professor_McMannwell: So we could tell you Jesus died a decade ago and you'd believe it more than 2,000 years?

Daniel: Well not a decade ago, because I am 32 years old.

Arsenius: You're never old enough to leave heresy.
Alpha: We might as well not believe in gravity since it's not mentioned in the Bible.
Arsenius: Flat earth gang boys.
Professor_McMannwell: Lol
Arsenius: The Bible doesn't mention Martin Luther therefore he didn't exist. protestant rate drops to 0%

Daniel: I'm not saying he or anyone else didn't exist; I'm just saying it's not in the Bible so I don't necessarily believe it. I don't take extra-Biblical information as a given.

Alpha: Gravity is extra-biblical. Just because it's not mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean it's not true, that makes no sense.
Professor_McMannwell: ^^xv
Arsenius: Okay we can all agree holy tradition is a thing. Yay.
Alpha: Holy uhwhat now?
Arsenius dances on floor

Daniel: I think there are verses in the Bible that describe falling, actually.

Arsenius: Lmao.xvi
Alpha: Like Saul falling on his sword.

Daniel: But even modern physicists do not yet know how gravity works.

Alpha: Like you ought to do?
Arsenius: Okay alpha that's a lil too much. Telling someone to fall on a sword.

Daniel: Saul is in hell now because of that.

Alpha: Saul isn't in hell.
Arsenius: He prolly is, to be honest.

Daniel: Yes he is; God made him commit suicide and now he is in hell.

Arsenius: So God doesn't allow free will. We're reaching heresy levels I didn't know were possible.

Daniel: Correct; there is no free will.

Alpha: (KJV) 1 Samuel 28:

19xvii Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me:xviii the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Arsenius: Go back, to back.
Alpha: And how can a lost man become God's anointed?
Arsenius: Losing salvation.
Alpha: But he didn't as you can see in the verse.
Arsenius: Not sure man.
Alpha: "thou and thy sons be with me:" So that also proves you can't loose salvation.
Arsenius: Okay no.

Daniel: 2 Samuel 7:

15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

Arsenius: (KJV) Romans 11:

21xix For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Daniel: http://atruechurch.info/solomon.htmlxx

Alpha: Look at the context. (KJV) 2 Samuel 7:

14xxi I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

He's talking about chastisement.

Daniel: 1 Samuel 13:

13 And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you. For now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. 14 But now your kingdom shall not continue. The Lord has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the Lord has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.”

_BorgsII_: Are you Muslim, Daniel?

Daniel: No, Islam leads to hell.

Alpha: Daniel, that verse doesn't prove anything.
UKJaguar: I thought he was non-denom from his roles.
Alpha: That was Saul's first sin.
Arsenius: No he thinks Protestants, Catholics, orthodox, are going to hell.

Daniel: 1 Chronicles 10:

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Arsenius: Only his little sect is saved. Which is like 50 people. lmao

Daniel: We do not claim that ^

Alpha: Still proves nothing, and stop using NKJV, Daniel. KJV is easier to read.xxii

Daniel: But that is something false christian liars like you often accuse us of stating.

Arsenius: And every church father didn't have the Holy Spirit and Jesus said, "You are Daniel, and on this Daniel I will build my church." Do you not see how heretical this is?

Daniel: It is, and you have said it; not I.

Arsenius: This is worse than Mormonism (Professor_McMannwell, no hard feelings brother lol)
Alpha: "You are Arsenius, and on this Arsenius I will build my church because he disagrees with Daniel." Haha. I mean, it's not just me. It's literally every Christian for 1500 years until the prot reformation. You can't just use that because someone interprets the Bible differently.
Arsenius: I can. Lol
Alpha: I can use the same thing on you. Because every christian 1500 years ago agrees with me.
Arsenius: No you can't because you don't believe in real presence my friend. But they don't.
_BorgsII_: Interpretation can mean anything you want it to be
Arsenius: Christians only from 500 years ago till now agree with you. Not 1500.
Alpha: Yes 1500. *EVERY* christian.

  1. I think He unintentionally said something true here.
  2. John 16:
    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

  3. Acts 1:
    11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

  4. 2 Thessalonians 2:
    15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

  5. 1 Corinthians 11:
    2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

  6. I guess Professor_McMannwell identifies as a Mormon.
  7. That's true!
  8. 1 Corinthians 10:
    4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

  9. For some reason he (or a moderator) edited this line to read "they were doctrines given to him by the Holy Spirit."
  10. 2 Timothy 3:
    8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

  11. Exodus 7:
    8 Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,

  12. He is making that joke that the guy named Alpha in the chat thinks he is like Peter. Matthew 16:
    18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

  13. He doesn't get the joke (neither did I) and attempts to correct it.
  14. Troll meaning, he thinks I'm kidding.
  15. Meaning, I agree with the above line.
  16. Meaning, he's laughing very hard.
  17. 1 Samuel 28:
    19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

  18. On Saul being "with" God tomorrow, see Psalm 139:
    8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
    If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

  19. Romans 11:
    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

  20. This article is primarily about Solomon, but it also mentions Saul.
  21. 2 Samuel 7:
    14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.

  22. I can't tell if he was making a joke here.

3 Responses

  1. [...] Church Fathers" were Catholic ↩"Paul didn't follow sola scriptura. Why should you?" ↩1 Corinthians 11: 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep [...]

  2. [...] to His words" Haras: So you're using something which predates the existence of the Bible to prove sola scriptura. This is why people laugh at you. Daniel: Nothing predates the Bible, which is God. Haras: Friend, [...]

  3. [...] that are not based on Biblical Evidence... That is why the 'Catholic' church is not 100% correct. Sola Scriptura. luke-jr: Daniel, it is also inferred in St. Peter's behavior as recorded in Scripture. [...]

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