Daniel P. Barron

Mike: John Chrystosom ⁱ made an interesting point on why we should give to the poor.
Heres an excerpt from "On Wealth and Poverty":

By means of that which has been said, make yourselves better prepared to hear that which will be spoken on another occasion, and, if possible, remember all that has been said; and if that be not possible, I beg that, chiefest of all, you will remember constantly that not to share our own riches with the poor is a robbery of the poor, and a depriving them of their livelihood; and that that which we possess is not only our own, but also theirs. If our minds are disposed in accordance with this truth, we shall freely use all our possessions; we shall feed Christ while hungering here, and we shall lay up great treasures there; we shall, be enabled to attain future blessedness, by the grace and favour of our Lord, with whom, to the Father and the Holy Spirit, be glory, honour, might, now and ever, even to all eternity. Amen.

I find this really convincing myself. So whatever my or your church does, we have reason to give money to the poor.

Daniel: Citations would be nice. The guy writes like he’s making a Bible chapter. Specifically cite how not giving to the poor is robbery of the poor.

Mike: It's from "On Wealth and Poverty" by John Chrysostom.

Daniel: Yes, but what Bible verses is he making reference to? Specifically the robbery claim.

Mike: Okay disclaimer: Not an expert.

But "On Wealth and Poverty" is about the story of the rich man and Lazarus. They are basically six sermons, the specific chapter would be Luke 16. ⁱⁱ

Zen Balloon: What does giving to the poor mean, though? Let's say I have an extra 10,000. What's the best use of it?

Daniel: It’s a matter of conscience.

Zen Balloon: Conscience says "help as many as you can with this". How do I do it? How do I practice what you're preaching?

Daniel: Preach the Word of God.

Mike: Yeah it's a rather lengthy sermon, so its probably clearer which one he references to in context.

Daniel: In the example given by Mike, if a man lays dying at your door, help him. Or generally, treat others as you would want to be treated.

Zen Balloon Ok, easy peasy.

Daniel: Having wealth is not a sin, unless your trust is in the wealth.

Mike: That's a good point, who do we trust and rely on?

mcarans: Matthew 19:24 ⁱⁱⁱ

BibleBot: Matthew 19:24 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Daniel: Everything belongs to God, even your money.

Mike: To add to that, even you yourself belong to Him.

Zen Balloon: Right. Everything does. But how do we use money in the most ethical way? Giving it all away? If not, then how?

Daniel: Hebrews 2:10 nkjv

BibleBot: Hebrews 2:10 - New King James Version (NKJV)

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Daniel: The Bible does not say that you must give everything away, but that you must be ready to. ^iv

Zen Balloon: Right.

Daniel: Matthew 6:19-21 nkjv

BibleBot: Matthew 6:19-21 - New King James Version (NKJV)

19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Zen Balloon: How do we lay up treasures in heaven?

Daniel: Preach the Word of God.

Zen Balloon: What does that mean?

Daniel: Warn people that they are on their way to hell; warn them of false teachers, by calling them out by name.

Zen Balloon: Nah. That's saying what the Word isn't. I'm asking what it is.

Daniel: For example, John Chrysostom is a false teacher who leads people to hell.

Zen Balloon: Who's a real teacher? What is The Teaching?

Daniel: Christ.

Zen Balloon: What about him?

Daniel: He is the Word.

Zen Balloon: Something he said? Something he did?

Daniel: The whole Bible. Matthew 4:4 nkjv

BibleBot: Matthew 4:4 - New King James Version (NKJV)

4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "

Mike: I agree that Christ is a real teacher and His way is the teaching which is best to follow.

Zen Balloon: So the point is to make people believe the Bible is true?

Daniel: Yes.

Mike: But I would like to know why you think John Chrystosom is a false teacher? Anything specific that stands out?

Daniel: He says that not giving to the poor is robbery of the poor, with no citation.

Zen Balloon: But I don't want people telling me how the Koran is true. So me making them think the Bible is true wouldn't be treating them how I want to be treated.

Daniel: If you were not in the truth, you wouldn’t want to be corrected? If you were on your way to hell you wouldn’t want to be warned?

Mike: I would love to be corrected, that's alright by me friend. But I think he is interpreting the passage from Luke. As far as I can see.

Zen Balloon: It's an economic robbery, very separate, but what we spend our money on is part of our responsibility.

Daniel: It isn’t robbery at all.

Zen Balloon: Which is why I asked:

How do we use our money in a Christian way?

Mike: I agree there, it's not literal robbery. If I understand the text correctly, he is using robbery as a metaphor.

Daniel: He should use scripture.

Mike: As in, by denying them charity, we are perhaps like the rich man from the passage from Luke.

Daniel: In that passage, a man was dying at his doorstep.

Zen Balloon: You can quote all of scripture you want, but unless it can be practiced, it's nothing more than abstraction.

Mike: And he did not help, whilst he could have helped, do you agree with this?

Daniel: If you make claims about salvation without citing scripture, you are a liar.

Zen Balloon: What was his claim?

Daniel: The whole thing was without citation.

Mike: (I meant the rich man)

Zen Balloon: You're getting hung up on the letters, not the meaning, Daniel.

Daniel: Yes he could have helped, and then later he hypocritically asked for help, revealing that he did not treat his neighbor as he would like to be treated. No robbery took place.

Mike: Okay give me a second, this will be easier to explain if I can get the text in context.

Daniel: Actually, it doesn’t even say he could have helped. It only says that one was rich and the other poor, then later the roles reversed. And that a great divide was between them, and that if people won’t hear the Word from the prophets, they won’t hear it from the dead. Which is to say, hear the Word while you can, because otherwise your place is hell. You will only believe if God makes you believe; not even witnessing the dead being raised is enough to overcome this. And false teacher John Chrysowhatever lies and makes it about robbing the poor.

Mike: It's to me personally very obvious that he could've helped. In this time, habitually dressing in purple was very expensive. So I think it would be fair to say this rich man, who had this poor man basically dying in front of his gate, could've at least helped. Do you agree with that?

Daniel: No. In fact the verses suggest otherwise. ^v

Mike: Okay, please elaborate.

Daniel: The rich man needed help; he’s the one who is now in hell.

Mike: Yes afterwards.

Daniel: The poor man is now rich in God’s kingdom.

Mike: But in this world right. By the simple act of giving this man some leftovers from his table, he could've become likewise rich, in the sense in which Lazarus became rich later on.

Daniel: It says the poor man cannot help the rich man in hell.

Mike: Yes, but the rich man can help the poor man on earth. By doing so he also helps himself.

Daniel: It doesn’t say that.

Mike: He wants to warn his brothers, because he does not want them to end up in the same position he is in.

Daniel: It says his brothers wouldn’t hear the warning unless they heard it from Moses and the prophets. ^vi

Mike: I do not think that's how it's meant. This might be just me. (Luke 16:29 NASB)

BibleBot: Luke 16:29 ^vii - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

29 But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'

Daniel: (Luke 16:30-31 nkjv)

BibleBot: Luke 16:30-31 - New King James Version (NKJV)

30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Mike: This sounds like he's saying, that because they already have the law and the prophets they do not need to hear it from the dead.

Daniel: (Matthew 12:39 nkjv)

BibleBot: Matthew 12:39 - New King James Version (NKJV)

39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Daniel: It’s not they don’t need it; they are evil for wanting it, and they won’t get it. Or rather, the evil want a sign.

Mike: But the question which I have then is: Aren't they getting a sign tho? Will people similar to the rich man, through this parable get the warning? To me, it seems like this parable is also a warning, if that makes sense.

Daniel: No, Christ spoke in parables so that they would not understand. (Matthew 13:10-11 nkjv)

BibleBot: Matthew 13:10-11 - New King James Version (NKJV)

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Zen Balloon: "You guys understand, so I'm telling them now." Parables are a great way to teach.

Daniel: And that one from Luke about the rich guy isn’t a parable.

Mike: Yes it's more of a story. But we deviated allot, my apologies I didn't mean to shift the discussion. Zen Balloon, you asked:

How do we use our money in a Christian way?

Zen Balloon: Yes.

Daniel: (Luke 16:11-12 nkjv)

BibleBot: Luke 16:11-12 - New King James Version (NKJV)

11 Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if you have not been faithful in what is another man's, who will give you what is your own?

Zen Balloon: What does "faithful in the unrighteous Mammon" mean?

Daniel: Spending money with a good conscience.

1. An "early church father." ^
2. Luke 16:
   

   19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

   24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

   27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

    ^

3. Matthew 19:
   

   24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

    ^

4. 
   

   Darwin: Wrong. "whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:33) It ALL must already be forsaken (=given away) in your heart.

    ^

5. 
   

   Darwin: Wrong. Lazarus was laid at the rich man's gate. In the afterlife, he knew who he was. Being laid at the rich man's gate would imply, if there is any implication, that he both knew about him and could have helped him. God judges men according to their deeds, and in the afterlife the rich man wanted help from the very man he did not help. It's clear he didn't help him.

   On reaping what men sow: Hell is where the mockers are now mocked (Proverbs 1:26). The scoffers are now put to shame (Proverbs 3:35; 13:5). Murderers are now being tortured with perpetual death (Matthew 10:28; Revelation 21:8, "the second death"). Oppressors are now laid low (1 Samuel 2:7). Liars experience the reality that they have been lied to (Revelation 12:9). Kidnappers are now eternal captives (1 Timothy 1:10; Revelation 20:11-15). The rich suffer severe poverty (Proverbs 22:16; 28:22; Luke 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). The full are now hungry (Isaiah 65:13; Luke 6:25). The proud are rebuked (Psalm 119:21) and fully repaid (Psalm 31:23). The disobedient are punished (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). Cowards are now "utterly consumed with terror" (Psalm 73:18-19; Proverbs 10:24; Revelation 21:8). Those who laughed are now weeping and mourning (Isaiah 65:14; Luke 6:25). Those honored by men are now despised and lightly esteemed by God (Luke 6:26; Psalm 73:18-20; 1 Samuel 2:30/Proverbs 14:2), and will in the future be abhorred by all mankind (Isaiah 66:24; Daniel 12:2). Those who have wickedly dug a pit, are now cast down into the pit (Psalm 7:14-16; 9:15-17; Proverbs 26:27; 28:10 [Ecc.10:8]). Lovers of pleasure are now tormented with fire (2 Timothy 3:4; Revelation 21:8). Those who cursed are now cursed (Proverbs 20:20). Those who considered the cross foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) are now shown the shrewdness of God (2 Samuel 22:26-28). God indeed is not mocked. Men will reap what they have sown (Galatians 6:7-8).

    ^

6. 
   

   Darwin: Not well put. "They have Moses and the prophets;" (Luke 16:29) And, "`If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" (Luke 16:31)

    ^

7. Luke 16:
   

   29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

    ^