Daniel P. Barron

We literally gave away everything, are we good?

Thursday, January 24, 2019

This log has been modified for spelling and formatting. It has been reviewed by Darwin Fish.

Nathaniel_Robinson: Daniel, does Jesus call on his followers to live like him and he's apostles?

Daniel: Yes.

Nathaniel_Robinson: And how did they use money?

Daniel: In good conscience.

Nathaniel_Robinson: Specifically.

Daniel: They used it to pay taxes.i They gave alms.ii

Nathaniel_Robinson: Didn't they give all their money away? And instruct others to do likewise? And keep just a little in a collective money bag, with a thief for a treasurer, and if they needed coins they had so little that Jesus performed a miracle to allow the apostles to pull a coin from a fish's mouth?

Daniel: See the footnote in my article:

Darwin: Wrong. "whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:33iii) It ALL must already be forsaken (=given away) in your heart.

Nathaniel_Robinson: That "in your heart" is in what Bible translation?

Daniel: 1 Chronicles 28:

9 “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

Nathaniel_Robinson: That looks like an entirely different.... testament.

Daniel: So?

Nathaniel_Robinson: So.... it doesn't say you have to give away everything (in your heart)?

Daniel: It says forsake everything.

Nathaniel_Robinson: Instead, it says that in order to guarantee admittance to heaven you have to give away everything (full stop)? And then, Peter said to Jesus "We literally gave away everything, are we good?" And Jesus says...?

Daniel: Luke 22:

36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

John 4:

7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.

How is it these saved people are able to buy swords and food if they have given away everything?

Nathaniel_Robinson: (RSVCE) Luke 22:

33iv And he said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” 34 He said, “I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me.”

35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was reckoned with transgressors’; for what is written about me has its fulfilment.” 38 And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.”

Context: Jesus is going to be killed, apostles need to stay safe in immediate future. They had no personal money. What little they had was in a collective money bag. Their minimal possessions were for necessity. Correct? I mean, you tell me. Are Jesus and Peter lying previously?

Daniel: God does not lie.v

Nathaniel_Robinson: So then, did Jesus and the apostles have money? More importantly, are you living like he did and said to?

Daniel: Yes and yes.

Nathaniel_Robinson: Or are you eagerly accepting the watered down modern eisegesis? Matthew 6:

26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

  1. Romans 13:
    7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

  2. Luke 12:
    33 Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.

  3. Luke 14:
    33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

  4. Luke 22:
    33 But he said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”

    34 Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”

    35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”

    So they said, “Nothing.”

    36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”

    38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”

    And He said to them, “It is enough.”

  5. Nor can He lie. Titus 1:
    2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

4 Responses

  1. Svarthol

    I totally agree with the point you're making about money. I think Christ calls on us to use it wisely and conscientiously, without selling ourselves to it, or becoming social outcasts and pariahs (or prisoners or fugitives wanted for tax evasion) by trying to forsake it completely. Rather, we need to try to put it to good purpose, ideally for the benefit of others, recognizing that we must also care for ourselves if we are to be effective in helping others. As Darwin points out (in the fourth footnote) "It ALL must already be forsaken (=given away) in your heart." You must be willing to part with anything you "have" if it would do good for somebody else (a matter which may take some deliberation and careful judgement), recognizing that everything belongs to God (including you).

  2. without [...] trying to forsake it completely.

    We do need to forsake it completely. Whatever I have, it is not mine, and I have already given it away.

  3. ^Peter^

    Yes it is a wise use of resources, without being greedy and appropriating to ourselves. An interesting discourse.

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