Arsenius Pythius: Dexter, what I recommend is say the Hail Mary and Our Father prayers everyday. Read a book of the Bible of your choice everyday and stick with it until you're finished. Then ask the saints i in heaven to pray that you find the truth.
Daniel: I recommend that nobody listen to the voice of a catholic.
Dexter: I have seen the Our father prayer in the bible. Where is the hail Mary one? and what is it used for? Daniel, I can't pretend that I really understand much theology at all right now. But so far I've noticed there's quite the divide between Catholicism and Protestantism. What exactly is the Catechism of the Catholic Church that is mentioned in that link? is that like the catholic version of the bible?
Daniel: I don't know except it is some extra-biblical book of theirs. ii
Arsenius Pythius: Daniel, it is not.
Dexter, Instead of taking people's words for it, read it for yourself. But basically, it is the list of doctrines and dogmas and the teachings of the Church on specific issues.
But it is NOT and extra-biblical book.Daniel: And yet our article uses it to show where the catholic church disagrees with the Bible.
Arsenius Pythius: Lol "prayer is worship." No it's not. Praying is asking. That's what the word pray means.
Saint Wizard: But how can saints hear millions of prayers st once and read minds, Arsenius Pythius??????
MissMo: How would you feel if you were God and all you heard in prayers was give me this, give me that, me me me me? Shouldn't prayer be a two-way street?Daniel:
Prayer is a form of worship. Biblically, it is either wrongfully used in the worship of false gods (idols, e.g. Isaiah 44:17; iii 45:20 iv) or the worship of the one true God (directly to Him, e.g. Psalm 17 v). Therefore, despite the Catholic denial that they are worshipping those they are praying to (angels and saints), they are nonetheless worshipping them.
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, speaking in the context of the saints it says,
"We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world." (p. 645, #2683).
Catholic Answers writes,
Our prayer to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and their intercession with the Father do not undermine Christ's role as sole Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5). (Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth, p. 21)
Here again, they speak lies in hypocrisy (1 Timothy 4:2 vi). Yes it does "undermine Christ's role as sole Mediator." It completely denies that "there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5 vii). Prayers to the saints to make "intercession" creates many mediators (intercessors) in the heavens between God and men, which the Bible nowhere teaches. In truth, for those who follow the true Christ, we have the Son of God Himself. We need (nor want) no other (Ephesians 1:3; viii Colossians 2:8-10; ix 2 Peter 1:3 x).
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25; Romans 8:34 xi)
Arsenius Pythius: I read that. Hey lemme ask you something.
Daniel: Okay.
Arsenius Pythius: Do you ask people to pray for you? If so, you're worshiping them. Because Jesus is our only mediator. All prayer to saints are is them praying for us, not that we ask them to forgive our sins.
Daniel: I ask people to pray for me; I don't pray to them.
Arsenius Pythius: Yes. But prayer is asking. Pray comes from the Old English to ask. Asking them to pray for us.
Daniel: I ask people who aren't in the kingdom of God yet; that is, not having died yet.
Arsenius Pythius: We say "O Saint __, pray for us." We don't give them worship. An angel or a divine energy gives the prayer to the saint. As is said in revelation 8:4 xii I believe.
BibleBot: Revelation 8:4 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)<4> And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Daniel: that doesn't say to pray to the saints
Arsenius Pythius: It says the saints pray. We're just asking them. They pray for us anyway. Why not ask them? They're already in a glorified body. And Hebrews says that they see what happens on earth. xiii
MissMo: What about actually praying to God? Having a conversation with Him and enjoying His presence?
bappa: Oof. Y'all stay beefin. xiv
Arsenius Pythius: MissMo, we do that. We pray in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit. LoL
MissMo: If you say so....
Arsenius Pythius: I usually pray "O Saint Mary of Egypt, pray for me in my time of trouble, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." I feel that she is my personal saint but that's just me.
MissMo: Sounds like a lot legalism to me. I just enjoy having a relationship with my Heavenly Father.
Arsenius Pythius: And it is through God Alone that we can pray to those in heaven. How is that legalism. That's called freedom to pray. I don't know what it is with Protestants and calling everything legalistic when it's blatantly not.
MissMo: Do you require a earthly child talk to his earthly father like that? Or can he simply go to his father and enjoy his company?
Arsenius Pythius: God is not our earthly father. He is a King. And Jesus didn't say "yo father, blah blah blah." xv
MissMo: No, but he wants us to enjoy a relationship just like that.
Arsenius Pythius: I do enjoy a relationship with him.
MissMo: If you say so.
Arsenius Pythius: But I revere him and don't just say "yo god help me find my car keys." I pray, O Father who is in Heaven. I don't say "yo Fatha god, help me wife this girl." xvi That's ludicrous.
MissMo: Whatever floats your boat and rocks your world.
Arsenius Pythius: You don't like praying like how Jesus told us to pray? With reverence but a personal relationship.
MissMo: I speak to my Heavenly father just like my earthly father. With respect and honor. But not with vain repetition.
Arsenius Pythius: I don't speak in vain repetitions either. Nor do practicing Catholics.
MissMo: Sure
Arsenius Pythius: They literally don't, MissMo.
Saint Wizard: Arsenius Pythius, there's a difference between asking a person here that can literally hear us than asking "saints" who can literally hear and must have some type of Divine power to hear millions at once.
Arsenius Pythius: Time is different in heaven. And why did you put quotations around saints?
Saint Wizard: What do you mean?
Arsenius Pythius: Asking how saints can hear prayers in heaven is like asking how tall is red.
Saint Wizard: What?
Saint Wizard: Give me a biblical verse about saints and angles being able to hear millions of prayers, Arsenius Pythius. Or something around that.
Arsenius Pythius: Revelation 5:8 xvii
BibleBot: Revelation 5:8 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)<8> When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Arsenius Pythius: Revelation 8:4
BibleBot: Revelation 8:4 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)<4> And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Arsenius Pythius: And not everything has to be in scripture for it to be truthful. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 xviii
BibleBot: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)<15> So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
Daniel: Arsenius Pythius,
Darwin: The saints can, like God, hear any prayer from anywhere in the entire world? Sounds like a god to me.
And now you are advocating extra-Biblical traditions of men.
Arsenius Pythius: That presupposes it is a tradition of men.
Daniel: It's not in the Bible...
Arsenius Pythius: And what quote is that? It doesn't have to be in the Bible. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
BibleBot: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)<15> So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
Daniel: That was from Darwin, the guy who wrote the article I linked.
Arsenius Pythius: Okay? He's not the early church. xix He probably doesn't believe in real presence, xx traditions that are not in the Bible that are still words of God, bishops, priests, etc. I won't take his word as truth.
Saint Wizard: Arsenius Pythius, how does revelation 8:4 prove saints can hear millions of prayers, it says The prayers of the saints not to the saints.
BibleBot: Revelation 8:4 - King James Version (KJV)<4> And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Arsenius Pythius: The prayers that they prayed for us on our behalf. They prayed to God for us.
Saint Wizard: Okay. I know saints and anyone can pray for us but my question was how can saints hear prayers when they can't literally hear us? And how can they hear millions at once, Arsenius Pythius?Daniel: Arsenius Pythius, re: oral traditions
Darwin: Yeah, that's their argument. But, it holds no water, since they (the Catholic church) "does not abide in the doctrine of Christ" (2 John 9). Thus, I know they do not "have God" (2 John 9).
Arsenius Pythius: Why are you quoting this irrelevant website?
Arsenius Pythius: Saint Wizard, again, because it's heaven. Totally different dimension.
Saint Wizard: Okay, now give me the biblical proof.
Arsenius Pythius: For what? And again, not every single thing has to be in the Bible for it to be the word of God.
Saint Wizard: Well that's the issue here.
Arsenius Pythius: It's not an issue.
Saint Wizard: You guys go by what men say and not by the Bible.
Arsenius Pythius: No we go by what God says. Outside of the Bible.Daniel: That was a quote made just now; I'm chatting with Darwin about you.
Arsenius Pythius: Okay?
Saint Wizard: By god or men?
Arsenius Pythius: By god.
Saint Wizard: Men isn't god.
Arsenius Pythius: It isn't men. We don't claim that it is from men.
Saint Wizard: Your priest or pope isn't god.Daniel: He goes on to say,
Darwin: Obviously, the Thessalonians were given truth, and we may very well have all they had. Paul just doesn't spell out what exactly those traditions are that he is talking about (perhaps, like the head covering in 1 Corinthians 11 xxi). But, elsewhere Paul said, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) So, we have all we need.
Arsenius Pythius: You claim that. Of course Paul doesn't say what the traditions are because, guess what, they were passed on orally. I didn't say priests or popes were god. That's a straw man.
Daniel: They were passed on among people in the truth; the catholic church today is not in the truth.
Arsenius Pythius: Paul explaining what traditions they were would be redundant. But your church goes only by the Bible. That is a tradition of men.
Daniel: lol! The Bible says all you need is the Bible.
Arsenius Pythius: Going exclusively by the Bible is a tradition of men. It doesn't say that. Paul believed in extra biblical material.
Daniel: See verse above!
Saint Wizard: Going by the Bible isn't tradition. It's called being Christian.
Arsenius Pythius: Being a Protestant* xxii
We do go by the Bible. You're saying that we should go only by the Bible.
Saint Wizard: And by men.
Arsenius Pythius: No. By God.
Saint Wizard: God isn't men. xxiii A priest is fallible.Daniel: You add and subtract to and from the Bible, and justify it by calling it "oral tradition."
Arsenius Pythius: Dude, learn the Catholic position before you debate what we believe. We don't claim priests are infallible. That's heresy.
Daniel, what is tradition taught orally called? Oral tradition. You can't just ignore 2 Thessalonians 2:15. Word of mouth.Daniel: It says by word OR by letter. I have the letters. I also have the words that are in the Bible.
Arsenius Pythius: So you're just going to ignore that it says "by word of mouth" ? And say "it says by letter too!!!" And 2 Timothy 3:17 requires there to be an infallible interpretation of scripture, which you don't believe in.
Daniel: I'm not going to listen to your words that are lies.
Arsenius Pythius: Paul is a liar? Or do you just not have an argument.
Daniel: If your traditions contradict scripture, I know they are false.
Arsenius Pythius: Yes. I agree. But you're saying there are no traditions. You believe in bible alone.
Daniel: The traditions I need are mentioned in scripture.
Arsenius Pythius: That's not an oral tradition. Oral implies without letter. Written letter. You're just ignoring 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and calling it a lie.
Daniel: It says oral from them, not you and your false church.
Arsenius Pythius: And consequently Paul a liar. That's not an argument.
Saint Wizard: Is being a homosexual priest a tradition too?
Arsenius Pythius: You don't believe in anything the early church taught.Daniel: Yes it is; the catholic church is wrong on more issues than just the praying to saints heresy.
Arsenius Pythius: Lol. So the whole church was wrong until the saviors Daniel and Marvin xxiv restored Christianity.
Daniel: I don't call myself the only believer nor do I call myself a savior.
Arsenius Pythius: You're claiming that this "A True Church" is the church Christ established. And you quote your page like it's the words of God.
Daniel: There was not just one church in truth even in Paul's time.
Arsenius Pythius: And you have the audacity to call saintly intercession a heresy? So you don't believe Christ kept his church from corruption?
Daniel: Does it say He would in the Bible?
MissMo: Living saints not dead ones.
Arsenius Pythius: They're not dead. To claim they are is heretical. They're in heaven alive.
MissMo: Are they walking and talking on earth right now?Daniel: They have died although the aren't dead.
Arsenius Pythius: No but they're alive. They have died physically. Not spiritually.
Daniel: Which is besides the point that most catholic "saints" are actually in hell.
Arsenius Pythius: Daniel, him saying "the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against the church" is clear to me.
MissMo: Saints are talking about alive right here right now.
Arsenius Pythius: They're in heaven.
MissMo: Not physically dead
Arsenius Pythius: How is that hard to grasp. Their bodies are dead. But in heaven they're alive.Daniel: What verse is that?
Arsenius Pythius: Matthew 16:18 xxv
BibleBot: Matthew 16:18 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)<18> And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
Daniel: We have bodies in the kingdom of heaven.
Arsenius Pythius: Their earthly bodies.
MissMo: I'm a saint, because I'm chosen by God and I accepted Him. But I certainly wouldn't want someone praying to me. That would be weird.Daniel: There is the church that is all who believe and then there are the churches which are individual groups.
Arsenius Pythius: I agree. There are churches that are in communion with the one church Christ founded. And that's not any Protestant church.
MissMo, not an argument.Daniel: Revelation 1:4
BibleBot: Revelation 1:4 - New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting the Seven Churches<4> John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
MissMo: Daniel and death wizard are also saints. Probably wouldn't want the whole world praying to them either.
Arsenius Pythius: Well, I wouldn't say they're saints. I can't judge someone's salvation. xxviDaniel: I don't think that anyone else in here is a saint.
MissMo: God wants us to go directly to Him.
Arsenius Pythius: Besides yourself of course.Daniel: Not because I don't judge, but because I do judge.
Darwin: To most Catholics, the term "saint" is a term usually reserved only for an extra special holy person who is now dead but in heaven. Whereas, in the Bible the term saint is used for believers, and they can presently be on earth, e.g. " As for the saints who are on the earth, . . . "(Psalm 16:3; 79:2; 85:8; 116:15; Acts 9:13, 32, 41; 26:10; Romans 1:7; 12:13; 15:25-26; Rev 13:7; etc.).
Darwin: The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) mentioned in the article is the official teaching of the Catholic Church.
- Isaiah 44:
17 And the rest of it he makes into a god,
His carved image.
He falls down before it and worships it,
Prays to it and says,
“Deliver me, for you are my god!” - Isaiah 45:
20 “Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save. - Psalm 17:
1 Hear a just cause, O Lord,
Attend to my cry;
Give ear to my prayer which is not from deceitful lips.
2 Let my vindication come from Your presence;
Let Your eyes look on the things that are upright.3 You have tested my heart;
You have visited me in the night;
You have tried me and have found nothing;
I have purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.
4 Concerning the works of men,
By the word of Your lips,
I have kept away from the paths of the destroyer.
5 Uphold my steps in Your paths,
That my footsteps may not slip.6 I have called upon You, for You will hear me, O God;
Incline Your ear to me, and hear my speech.
7 Show Your marvelous lovingkindness by Your right hand,
O You who save those who trust in You
From those who rise up against them.
8 Keep me as the apple of Your eye;
Hide me under the shadow of Your wings,
9 From the wicked who oppress me,
From my deadly enemies who surround me.10 They have closed up their fat hearts;
With their mouths they speak proudly.
11 They have now surrounded us in our steps;
They have set their eyes, crouching down to the earth,
12 As a lion is eager to tear his prey,
And like a young lion lurking in secret places.13 Arise, O Lord,
Confront him, cast him down;
Deliver my life from the wicked with Your sword,
14 With Your hand from men, O Lord,
From men of the world who have their portion in this life,
And whose belly You fill with Your hidden treasure.
They are satisfied with children,
And leave the rest of their possession for their babes.15 As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness;
I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness. - 1 Timothy 4:
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
- 1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
- Ephesians 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
- Colossians 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
- 2 Peter 1:
3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
- Romans 8:
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
- Revelation 8:
4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.
Darwin: The Hebrew verse he is probably referring to says, "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, . . . (Heb 12:1). The context is the prior chapter, chapter 11, in which the writer lists many examples ("witnesses") of believers of the past who lived lives of faith. That's the "great a cloud of witnesses." There is no statement about anyone presently watching us from heaven.
- I think this means, "you all are still arguing." ^
Darwin: Jesus said, "Abba, Father, . . . (Mark 14:36). "Abba" is what you will hear in modern Israel today from a little boy to his dad. It's equivalent to our word "Daddy."
- Why not? It wouldn't be wrong. ^
- Revelation 5:
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
- "Early Church Fathers" were Catholic ^
- "Paul didn't follow sola scriptura. Why should you?" ^
- 1 Corinthians 11:
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
- Meaning, sarcastically "I think you meant to say being Protestant." ^
- Actually He is. See: He is Holy Gods and The Lord is a Man. ^
- I think he meant to say Darwin. ^
- Matthew 16:
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
- If you believed you could! ^
[...] "Do you ask people to pray for you? 'Brothers and sisters pray for me.' That is what we are doing to saints; not praying to them but asking them to pray for us. We don't worship Mary. It is the same as saints." I ask saints who are with me on earth, who I fellowship with in person. [...]