Daniel P. Barron

Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.

Tuesday, February 18, 2020

Daniel: does God decieve people?
criticallyred: He does not
Daniel: yes He does
Daniel:

And the prophet who is deceived and speaks a word, I the Lord [Yehvâh] deceived that prophet and will stretch out my hand against him and will cause him to be destroyed from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)

Scripture: Ezekiel 14:9 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<9> "And if the prophet is induced to speak anything, I the Lord have induced that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel.

Daniel: Jeremiah 4:10
Scripture: Jeremiah 4:10 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<10> Then I said, "Ah, Lord God! Surely You have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, Saying, 'You shall have peace, 'Whereas the sword reaches to the heart."

Daniel: Jeremiah 20:7 KJV
Scripture: Jeremiah 20:7 - King James Version (KJV)

<7> O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

Daniel: God causes people to reject Him, and this is deception. (Matthew 21:42)
Scripture: Matthew 21:42 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<42> Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'?

Some more time goes by...

criticallyred: Idk this server is nonsense anyway
Daniel: 1 Corinthians 1:18
Scripture: 1 Corinthians 1:18 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<18> For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

criticallyred: I’m a Christian. Christianity is not foolishness to me. What you are espousing, daniel, is.
Daniel: you are not a christian. You are a false christian
criticallyred: I don’t understand Daniel. You said earlier you have to trust on Jesus to be saved. I do that. So why are you saying I’m not saved. I understand there is such a thing as false converts. But In reality you can’t know that I’m not trusting in Christ.
Daniel: you believe in a false Christ
Daniel: i know this because of what you say about your christ
Daniel: He is not the same as the Christ of the Bible
criticallyred: What differs between your Christ and my Christ?
Daniel: your christ doesn’t deceive people. Your christ isn’t one of more than three gods who are all one godi
criticallyred: My Christ is truth.
Daniel: nope, your christ isn’t real
criticallyred: Jesus does not deceive.
Daniel: yes, He does
criticallyred: He was honest and direct
Daniel: He can’t lie,ii but He causes people to believe lies
Daniel: Direct? Really? (Mark 4:10-12)
Scripture: Mark 4:10-12 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<10> But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. <11> And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, <12> so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' "

criticallyred: This is when the topic of election comes in to play and not wether or not Jesus is a deceiver.
Daniel: Christ chooses who is elect. Those who He doesn't choose for it are necessarily caused to be deceived by Him
Daniel: John 15:16
Scripture: John 15:16 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<16> You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Daniel: John 6:44
Scripture: John 6:44 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<44> No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Daniel: Romans 9:16
Scripture: Romans 9:16 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<16> So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Some more time passes...

criticallyred: I still hold that christ was no deceiver.
Daniel: He doesn’t lie. He causes people to believe lies.
Daniel: 1 Kings 22:19-23
criticallyred: That's a disingenuous thing to do.
Scripture: 1 Kings 22:19-23 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<19> Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. <20> And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. <21> Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.' <22> The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' <23> Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."

criticallyred: I admit that my understanding of god's sovereignty is a bit unsure. But it always appears in scripture that any time God leads someone in to lies, its not because he's going out of his way to make sure they stay blinded, it's that he's effectively giving them what they wanted. That doesn't make him a deceiver.
Daniel: mark 4:10-12
Scripture: Mark 4:10-12 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<10> But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. <11> And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, <12> so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' "

criticallyred: Again, Israel was in rebellion because they were following the laws of man, not of God. They deceived themselves.
Daniel: Christ clearly says that He speaks in parables so that they will stay blinded
criticallyred: Even if your understanding of that verse is correct, he is not deceiving. Deceiving is something you actively do. In this case it is passive. Because in that case he is just withholding the knowledge that God the father is willing him to withhold.
Daniel: Jeremiah 4:10
Scripture: Jeremiah 4:10 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<10> Then I said, "Ah, Lord God! Surely You have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, Saying, 'You shall have peace, 'Whereas the sword reaches to the heart."

criticallyred: The prophets were sending messages of peace when there wasn't. So the deception is on the false prophets and not on God. That's jeremiah speaking and not god saying "Yes I made them think one thing when i meant another"
Daniel: Jeremiah wasn't lying
criticallyred: He was refering to the false prophets. He's saying "these prophets were preaching peace when there wasn't any, so what gives?"
Daniel: God caused those prophets to lie.
Kuro: Hmmmm. God deceiving the people and Jerusalem makes sense. Jeremiah 4:10
Kuro: But I feel like the reasoning of why it happened should be included in it. It's "Deceiving" but its justified.
Daniel: I didn't say God is unjustified in deceiving anyone. He does no wrong.iii
Kuro: I know you didn't, but other people can assume (People assume a lot of stuff) that it wasn't jutisfied.

  1. See "He Is Holy Gods."
  2. Titus 1:
    2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

  3. Romans 9:
    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

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