Daniel P. Barron

How does one derive monopolytheism from the written Tanakh?

Wednesday, January 8, 2020

G a b e גבריאל: So how does one derive monopolytheism from the written Tanakh... it seems like a gnostic concept that isnt directly found anywhere in it.
Darwin: Plural adjective, plural noun = Holy Gods, living Gods. Plural noun, plural verb = Gods caused (Gen. 20:13i).
Darwin: Plural noun, plural participle = Gods judging, Ps. 58:11ii
Darwin: Plural noun, plural verb, Gods appeared
G a b e גבריאל: see as a person learning Hebrew, though, that dosnt seen to make much sense, as the term Elohim is known to have a singular usage in refference to the one G-d of Avraham.
Darwin: Gen. 35:7iii
Darwin: OK, disregard the proof based on your faulty logic
G a b e גבריאל: $ Deuteronomy 6:4
Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<4> "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

Darwin: Amen, God is One, as the Father and. Son are one, and believers are one (Jn. 17iv)
G a b e גבריאל: This verse here says G-d is one G-d, directly. In the Hebrew this says- "Shema, Yisra'el, [Adonai] Eloheinu, [Adonai] Echad.". A plurality isnt noted.
Darwin: Same Hebrew word (one), and the people are one
Darwin: Does not say one God
Darwin: In the Hebrew
Darwin: Says, Yehvah is One
b17: can i interject?
Darwin: Gen. 11:6v the people are one. Same word, same construction as Deut. 6:4
Darwin: Deut. 6:4 Yehvah one; Gen. 11:6 people one
G a b e גבריאל: That isnt what Prophet Isaiah seems to think; $ Isaiah 44:6
Scripture: Isaiah 44:6 - New King James Version (NKJV)

There Is No Other God

<6> "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Darwin: You are not understanding
G a b e גבריאל: True, I am not understanding the gnostic position that G-d is, somehow, made up of possibly thousands of other gods.
Darwin: Yes, one God. In that one are Gods, as He Himself says, "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness
Darwin: Gen. 1:26vi
G a b e גבריאל: The meaning of that depends on how you would like to interperate this. I believe it reffers to the angels in the Highest Heaven.
Darwin: Then it says, in the image of Elohiym he made them
Darwin: THEM! Plural
Darwin: Says nothing of angels
Darwin: You add that
Darwin: Pro 30:5-6
Darwin: Proverbs 30:5-6
Scripture: Proverbs 30:5-6 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<5> Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. <6> Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

b17: @G a b e גבריאל https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopedia-of-hebrew-language-and-linguistics/pluralis-majestatis-biblical-hebrew-EHLL_COM_00000091
Darwin: That doesn't explain the plural use of adjectives and verbs with Elohiym
G a b e גבריאל: Then who are these beings that make up G-d?
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: tnx
Darwin: 7 Spirits of Godvii Zechariah 4
Darwin: 3 Men, Gen. 18viii
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: plural is showing the power of God
we have to understand the hebrew language
to get the picture why is it in plural
the word Jerusalem is also in plural on hebrew
but its only one
plural is showing the power of that word
in hebrew
Darwin: Father & Son, Dan. 7ix
G a b e גבריאל: ^
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: so you are saying there are more than 1 God????
G a b e גבריאל: Then you violate the commands of G-d, as you, like any trinitrian, divide the name and essense of the One into dozens. There is no god but G-d, even if you believe Yeshua is His Promised One.
Darwin: There is one God. In that one God are Gods
Darwin: As Josh. 24:19 says, "He is Holy Gods"x
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: What you are preaching has nothing to do with biblical monotheism
G a b e גבריאל: you preach a different Yeshua and a different G-d, this is not the G-d of my Fathers.
Darwin: Traditional, man made monotheism, indeed
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: I already explained this with plural > plural is showing the power of God
we have to understand the hebrew language
to get the picture why is it in plural
the word Jerusalem is also in plural on hebrew
but its only one
plural is showing the power of that word
in hebrew
Darwin: Indeed, the God of your father's is Satan, Jn. 8:44xi
G a b e גבריאל: No, He is Adonai, the G-d of Hosts $ Deuteronomy 6:4
Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<4> "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

Darwin: OK, how would you say, "He is Holy Gods" in Hebrew?
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: Idk hebrew perfectly,but I know these grammar rules
G a b e גבריאל: You wouldn't- such a statement is blasphemy under the eyes of the Ein Sof, who is the only Lord of Israel. We believe in Adonai Eloheinu, who is yachad and echad- one, in total being.
G a b e גבריאל: Yeshua agrees with this statement, when he says $ Mark 10:18
Scripture: Mark 10:18 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<18> So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

Darwin: You don't agree with Abraham
Darwin: David
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: they all were monotheists
Darwin: Writer of Genesis
Darwin: I can see you reject the Hebrew Bible
Darwin: I believe what it says
G a b e גבריאל: I agree, actually, whole heartedly, with the G-d of my Fathers, Adonai Eloheinu, and Moshe Ravveinu- $ Matthew 5:17-20
Scripture: Matthew 5:17-20 - New King James Version (NKJV)

Christ Fulfills the Law

<17> "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. <18> For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. <19> Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. <20> For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: when someone fulfills Law,there has to be a new law
G a b e גבריאל: @Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC not the point of my statement and i disagree nonetheless
Darwin: You have shown in your statement above, that no matter WHAT the Hebrew Bible says, you won't believe it, because it doesn't fit with what you have been taught
Darwin: Sad deal, you'll perish following men
G a b e גבריאל: I have actually not been raised in Judaism or taught this
Darwin: Where do you get your blasphemy statement then?
Darwin: You just made that up?
Darwin: It's not found in the Hebrew Bible
G a b e גבריאל: These are views I have come to understand on my own, with prayer and belief in the One Lord of my Fathers. I made up nothing, I speak as the ancient Ebionites and Nazoraens did, that there is but one G-d. I make up no blasphemies in declaring this wholeheartedly, that G-d is one. Sure, Demons exist. But there is one lord, who is a unity. Not a trinity, not a diarchy, not a tetrarchy, but a unity. For in the words of Moshe Ravveinu, $ Deuteronomy 6:4
Darwin: Your blasphemy statement is nowhere to be found in the Bible
Darwin: I agree, not a Trinity
G a b e גבריאל: you dont make anything better by just giving the trinity steroids lol
Darwin: There's no unity, in your theology
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: u arent trinitarian?
Darwin: Trinity is false
Darwin: There is more to God than 3, as I already mentioned the Seven
Darwin: Spirits of God
G a b e גבריאל: That is paganism
Darwin: Zechariah 4
Darwin: Of course, and Joshua was called demonic
G a b e גבריאל: No prophet of G-d is so
Darwin: Daniel had in him the "Spirit of the Holy Gods"xii
Darwin: Dan. 4&5
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: didnt I already explain plural?
Darwin: Yes, you explained it away, so far away, you have made it so you can never find the truth.
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: lol
G a b e גבריאל: Torah is the truth
Darwin: Indeed, and you reject it
Darwin: Who is He the God of?
Darwin: "God of God's"
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC: God of gods *
Darwin: Deut. 10:17xiii
Darwin: Who are these gods?
Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC:

For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.

G a b e גבריאל: At this point its subjective finger pointing lol. I have a view based on biblical scholarship too- just it dosnt agree with yours. You have no monopoly on truth. I trust in the Prophet Isaiah, $ Isaiah 45:5
Darwin: First you claim no connection, now you claim a connection to scholarship
Darwin: Which is it?
G a b e גבריאל: Yes, there are many. I have always claimed a connection to scholarship as well; they agree largely with us that Tanakh is a monotheistic book that mentions pagan demons. You can only support the view you take via the non-canonical gnostic gospels. ("Monopolytheism")
Darwin: Bible is all I need
G a b e גבריאל: I agree. Amen. Tanakh is all I need
Darwin: I wish very much you believed it
G a b e גבריאל: Id say the same to you, but at this point, we're both just pointing fingers. I trust that the Prophet Isaiah is no liar. Perhaps you should too. $ Isaiah 45:5
Scripture: Isaiah 45:5 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<5> I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,

Darwin: That verse only confirms what I believe
G a b e גבריאל: I, as well, say the same. So it seems like Tanakh is pretty debtable :face_with_monocle: But that isnt something that is exactly a new idea. I suppose we'd have to just agree to disagree, since neither of us clearly will be able to have a shaken view.
Darwin: You've put yourself in box. No matter what you find in the Hebrew Bible, if it doesn't fit, you won't see it
Darwin: Thanks for the convo. Gotta go
G a b e גבריאל: You do the same thing too. Have a good day, G-d bless you.
Darwin: I would like to see if you can/will answer my question. I know the answer. I'm wondering if you do. If someone were to blasphemously (according to you) say, "He is Holy Gods," how would this be said in the Hebrew?
Darwin: Would they say, "Elohiym Qadoshiym Hu"? Is that the way it would be said?
Daniel: @G a b e גבריאל @Gjergj 3496 NEW ACC ^
G a b e גבריאל: No Hebrew would say that, is the thing, nor would they remain a Hebrew much longer after uttering such a blasphemous statement.
Darwin: There are plenty of pagan blasphemous Hebrews. I lived in Israel. I know there are. Nonetheless, so, in other words, that is how an evil person would say that, correct?
Darwin: Can you at least acknowledge that is how it is said in Hebrew?
James: Elohiym is sometimes used to refer to the singular Lord, because calling him in the plural is a sign of respect since no singular being can even compare so its to differentiate himself from earthly lords or in this case angels.
James: It doesn't mean that he himself is a plurality. when the rest of the bible makes it very clear that he is not
James: the other reason to refer to him in such a way is to indicate that he himself is the pantheon a pantheon of one. hence the combination of singular and plural, its sort of a dab on Canaanites
Darwin: Where does it say He is not a plurality?
James: hu is not a plural. as far as other parts where it says the Lord is not a a plurality Gabe already went over several of them with you
Darwin: Hi is He, indeed. No verse was given saying anything about what He is not.
Darwin: Hu
James: Hi means she
Darwin: That was a typo
Darwin: I meant Hu
James: Are you operating off the assumption Elohiym always means the Lord?
Darwin: No
James: If he is one how can he be plural? what does it mean that there are no others beside him? I'm not going to reject your interpretation out right, but as you are no doubt aware it changes entirely the meaning of a lot of core passages and tenants of the faith.
James: it sounds like borderline panetheism
James: most scholars both religious and secular agree that the use of plural shows the importance or relative stature of something in ancient Hebrew, which would explain the passage you found. that said it is possible for everyone to be wrong, given there is a lot contingent on that interpretation but it's also pretty radical to assume its wrong as well
Darwin: Tenants of tradition, not Scripture. The plurality of God is quite evident in the very first chapter of Genesis (1:26-27). There we find both singularity and plurality all speaking of God and His image. No one else is referred to except Him, and Us, Our, and them (the ones created in His/Our image. Genesis 11:6 says the people are one. That's a plural unity of one. God is one God in Unity of Gods, as the Hebrew Bible makes quite clear. Also,, as Joshua, the Messiah, spoke of Himself both as "two men"(John 8) and as one (Jn 14).
Scripture: Genesis 11:6 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<6> And the Lord said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

Darwin: It's not one passage
James: I'm not saying its one passage
James: I agree he's referred to as plural, I'm under the impression thats indicative of his power not his being. as far as the pronouns go its really difficult to figure out how the refer to an all powerful being so the variation makes sense
James: I would be dubious of trying to stick such labels on the Lord as well.
Darwin: Plural adjectives, plural verbs, plural nouns together working together. If the Bible did teach, "He is Holy Gods", you'd never see, because you've explained it away.
James: it seems like you are applying english grammar rules and principles unto ancient hebrew, which is both unavoidable as a native speaker and very misleading as not only is hebrew a different language the root of the language is different as well
James: That being said there are no native speakers of ancient hebrew so your not alone in that
Darwin: No, across the board in the entire Hebrew Bible, if it's a plural verb with plural noun, that = plural
G a b e גבריאל: Nor does Hebrew grammer and context clues allude to that being the statement properly understood (ihad to go afk)
Darwin: They make an exception with His, because they don't believe it
G a b e גבריאל: no, you are interpreting the Hebrew to support your view
Darwin: Hebrew grammar dictates, plural verb, plural noun = plural
Darwin: You won't ever find otherwise
James: Plural in hebrew can also indicate different meanings of an individual, or to elevate an individuals status
Darwin: Except for God, and that's not grammar, that's tradition of men
G a b e גבריאל: plural in Hebrew also indicates power
Darwin: Find me ONE plural verb with a plural noun that is not plural
James: this occurs in reference to land and individual men as well.
Darwin: Let's see it
G a b e גבריאל: you literally made up your own tradition lmaoo. You made up your own sect
Darwin: Plural verb with plural noun, not a plural
Darwin: Where?
Darwin: Likewise, plural adjective with plural noun, not a plural. Where?
James: 1Kings 1:43
James: 1 Kings 1:43
Scripture: 1 Kings 1:43 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<43> Jonathan answered Adoni′jah, "No, for our lord King David has made Solomon king;

Darwin: There's no plural verb there, or plural adjective
Darwin: Only a plural noun. I know plural is used on occasion for men
James: plural verb is they has made king(nvm I misread it)
Darwin: That's singular
James: I kind of wish we had a hebrew bible bot that would make this a lot easier

  1. NKJV Genesis 20:
    13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is your kindness that you should do for me: in every place, wherever we go, say of me, “He is my brother.” ’ ”

    From Darwin's translation:

    Genesis 20:

    [13] And it came to pass, when Gods1 caused me to wander2 from my father’s house, I said to her, ‘This is your kindness which you should do for me. In every place which we go, say of me, ‘He is my brother.’”

    1. ('elohiym) - “Gods” - plural noun with plural verb. See below footnote.
    2. (hit`u) - “caused . . . to wander” - This is in the Hiphil plural form with its subject being also in the plural ('elohiym) “Gods.” In other words, it reads, “Gods [they] caused me to wander”. This is another reference to the plurality of Gods in the one and only God (as in Genesis 1:26-27; 3:5; 3:22; 11:5-9; 20:13). This same exact Hebrew verb is used for the princes of Noph “are deceived” in Isaiah 19:13. This Hebrew verb can also mean “deceived,” depending on the context. See also footnote for Exodus 22:9.

  2. Psalm 58:
    11 So that men will say,
    “Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
    Surely He is God who judges in the earth.”

    From Darwin's translation:

    Psalm 58:

    And a man will say, "Indeed, fruit for the righteous, indeed, there are Gods judging in the earth."

  3. NKJV Genesis 35:
    7 And he built an altar there and called the place El Bethel, because there God appeared to him when he fled from the face of his brother.

    From Darwin's translation:

    Genesis 35:

    [7] And he built there an altar and called the place, "God,1 the house of God,"2 because there the Gods3 were revealed4 to him when he fled from the face of his brother.

    1. ('êl) - “God” - singular
    2. ('êl) - “God” - singular
    3. ('elohiym) – “the Gods” - plural noun with plural verb. See footnote below.
    4. (niglu) - “were revealed” - Niphal (i.e. passive) plural verb, literally “they were revealed”

  4. John 17:
    20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

  5. NKJV Genesis 11:
    6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.

  6. NKJV Genesis 1:
    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    From Darwin's translation:

    Genesis 1:

    [26] And God said, “Let us make man1 in our image2 according to our3 likeness4 and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the flying creature of the heavens and over the beast and over the whole earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

    1. “man” - ('âdâm) – same word as for “Adam” (e.g. Genesis 4:25). See also footnote for Genesis 2:7.
    2. “in our image” - betsalmênu - the word here for image is used also in Genesis 5:3; 9:6; Numbers 33:52; 1 Samuel 6:5 (2x), 11; 2 Kings 11:18; 2 Chronicles 23:17; Psalm 39:6 (NKJV “shadow”); 73:20; Ezekiel 7:20; 16:17; 23:14; and Amos 5:26 (“idols”). God made a living image of Himself.
    3. God, who is One God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is nonetheless plural Gods, ('elohiym). See “He Is Holy Gods.” Here in Genesis 1:26-27 we see God, the eternal man (e.g. Genesis 3:8; 18:1-19:1; 32:22-30/Hosea 12:3-5; Exodus 15:3), the eternal men (“Our image,” “Our likeness,” Daniel 7:9, 13-14; John 8:17-18), make a created man. For more detail on God’s divine human nature, see the article The Lord Is A Man.
    4. “likeness” - demut - used in Genesis 5:1, 3; 2 Kings 16:10 (NKJV “pattern”); 2 Chronicles 4:3; Psalm 58:5 (like); Isaiah 13:4 (like); 40:18 (likeness); Ezekiel 1:5, 10, 16, 22, 26, 28; 8:2; 10:1, 10, 21-22; 23:15; and Daniel 10:16. The image and likeness Genesis 1:26 speaks of has to do with looks (as should be obvious from the use of the terms, see also Genesis 5:3) as well as behavior (Colossians 3:9-10). Although man’s behavior is marred by sin, the image and likeness still stands true today (see James 3:9).

  7. See "The Seven Spirits of God Are God".
  8. See "The Three Men of Genesis 18 Are God."
  9. I think he means Daniel 7:
    13 “I was watching in the night visions,
    And behold, One like the Son of Man,
    Coming with the clouds of heaven!
    He came to the Ancient of Days,
    And they brought Him near before Him.
    14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
    That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    Which shall not pass away,
    And His kingdom the one
    Which shall not be destroyed.

  10. From Darwin's translation, Joshua 24:
    You are not able to serve Yehvah, because He is Holy Gods, a Jealous God. He will not forgive your transgressions and your sins.

    The original Hebrew:

    אֱלהִים קְדשִׁים הוּא

  11. NKJV John 8:
    44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

  12. From Darwin's article:
    III. Daniel's Testimony

    Daniel well illustrates "He is Holy Gods" as well. In Daniel 4:8-9, and 18 the KJV reads,

    But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying, O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, . . . . (Aramaic text is Daniel 4:5-6)

    O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee. (Aramaic text is Daniel 4:15; see also NAS, NIV)

    Nebuchadnezzar, the holy man of God moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21), the one who gave us Daniel chapter 4, expressed the truth when he spoke of the "spirit of the holy gods" in Daniel. This chapter, chapter 4 of Daniel, reveals at the end of the chapter how Nebuchadnezzar turned to the Lord and praised "Him who lives forever and ever" (verse 34). Yet, before this, Nebuchadnezzar spoke of Daniel's God in a similar fashion. In chapter two the king said to Daniel,

    From truth that your Gods, He is God of gods, and Lord of kings, and Revealer of secrets, . . . . (Daniel 2:47, a more literal translation)

    Here in chapter two Nebuchadnezzar speaks in the plural, "your Gods" אֱלָהֲכוֹן ('elâhakhon), but then in the singular, "He is God of gods" הוּא אֱלָהּ אֱלָהִין (hu' 'elâh 'elâhiyn), and in the singular, "and Lord of kings" וּמָרֵא מַלְכִין (umârê' malkhiyn), and in the singular, "and Revealer of secrets" וְגָלֵה רָזִין (vegâlêh râziyn). Later, in chapter four, three times over Nebuchadnezzar uses the phrase רוּחַ אֱלָהִין קַדִּישִׁין (ruach 'elâhiyn qaddiyshiyn) "spirit of the holy gods" (Daniel 4:8-9, 18). Nebuchadnezzar was correct in what he said in all of these phrases. Daniel indeed had the Spirit of the Holy Gods.

    This Aramaic phrase is very similar to the Hebrew phrase "He is Holy Gods" of Joshua 24:19. Daniel 4:8-9 and 18 have the singular noun רוּחַ (ruach) "spirit" with the plural adjective and plural noun אֱלָהִין קַדִּישִׁין ('elâhiyn qaddiyshiyn) "holy gods" (KJV). Joshua 24:19 likewise has the singular pronoun הוּא (hu') "He" and the plural adjective and plural noun אֱלהִים קְדשִׁים ('elohiym qedoshiym) "Holy Gods."

    Furthermore, notice Daniel 4:8-9 and 18 do not have "spirits of the holy gods," but rather "spirit of the holy gods" (KJV). This singular "spirit" of the "holy gods" (plural) is also mentioned later in Daniel 5:11 (see KJV)1 by the queen.

    There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods . . . . (Daniel 5:11 KJV)

    The king likewise says,

    I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee. (Daniel 5:14 KJV)

    In every case, there is no record of Daniel giving any correction of this statement regarding him and the "Spirit of the Holy Gods" in him. There is no need for correction. It was literally true. Daniel indeed had "the Spirit of the Holy Gods," and Daniel 4 bears witness to it, as it very much speaks of God in the plural.

    Daniel 4:17 says,

    This decision is by the decree of the watchers, and the sentence by the word of the holy ones, . . . .

    Who are "the watchers" and "the holy ones"? A little later it says,

    this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: (Daniel 4:24)

    The "decree of the watchers" and "the sentence by the word of the holy ones" (Daniel 4:17) is "the decree of the Most High" (Daniel 4:24). So, who are "the watchers" and "the holy ones" of Daniel 4:17? According to the context (Daniel 4:8-9, 17-18, 24), they are "holy gods" (KJV, or "Holy Gods") of the one "spirit" (KJV, or "Spirit").

    These Holy Gods are further seen in this same chapter where it says,

    That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule. (Daniel 4:25-26 KJV)

    And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. (Daniel 4:32 KJV)2

    Who are the "They"s in Daniel 4:25-26, and in verse 32? They are the Holy Gods of Daniel 4:8-9, 18; 5:11, and 14. They (Gods) shall drive him from men. They (Gods) shall make him eat grass like an oxen. They (Gods) shall wet him with the dew of heaven. They (Gods) "commanded" (Daniel 4:26). So,

    after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule. (Daniel 4:26 KJV, "the Heavens rule," plural noun, plural verb שַׁלִּטִן שְׁמַיָּא [shallitin shemayyâ'])

    Later in Daniel the Lord is called (more literally), “Highest Ones,” or "Most High Ones," with the Aramaic plural noun, עֶלְיוֹנִין (`elyonin) in Daniel 7:18, 22, 25, & 27. This word is typically translated “Highest One” or “Most High,” but it is actually a plural term. The singular form of this word, עִלָּיָא (`illâyâ'), is always found with the definite article (the plural always without) and is in Daniel 3:26; 4:2 (A3:32), 17 (A14), 24-25 (A21-22), 32 (A29), 34 (A31); 5:18, 21; and 7:25. In Daniel 7:25 we have both the singular and the plural, and so it reads more literally,

    And he will speak a word against the Most High and wear out saints of Most High Ones and intend to change times and law, and they shall be given into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.

    1. Daniel 5:11 also mentions Daniel as having, "light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods."
    2. Technically, there is only one "they" in the Aramaic in Daniel 4:25 (A22) and 4:32 (A29). It is the Aramaic 3rd masculine plural verb, יְטַעֲמוּן (yeta`amun), "they shall make . . . eat" (NKJV). The other two "they"s in Daniel 4:25 (and one other "they" in 4:32) are masculine plural participles (טָרְדִין [târdiyn], "shall drive", & מְצַבְּעִין [metsab`iyn] "shall wet"). So, the subject is plural, and thus translated with "they."
      Moreover, Daniel 4:31 (A28) has the masculine plural participle, אָמְרִין ('âmriyn), for "it is spoken" (NKJV) "from the heavens" מִן־שְׁמַיָּ֣א (min-shemayyâ'). This same exact word is also found in Ezra 5:3; Daniel 2:7, 10; 3:16, 24; 6:6-7, 13-14, and 16 in a plural context. It is also found in Daniel 3:4 for the command of King Nebuchadnezzar (see Daniel 3:10). The singular form of this word is used in that same chapter for the king in verses 13-14, 19-20, 24-26, and 28.
      Finally, the plural form is also found in Daniel 7:5 for a command by "they." Daniel 7:18, 22, 25, 27 all use the plural noun, עֶלְיוֹנִין (`elyoniyn), which is more literally, "High Ones" in reference to God. And then, in Daniel 7:26 "they shall take away" is a masculine plural verb, יְהַעְדּוֹן (yeha`don).

  13. NKJV Deuteronomy 10:
    17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.

One Response

  1. [...] "How does one derive monopolytheism from the written Tanakh?" and "I do not think you know what Christology means." ↩See "I'd love to hear his answer on [...]

Leave a Reply

Your words may be altered or altogether purged in accordance with my preference to abstain from publishing statements that may be unnecessarily offensive to other readers. Your criticism is welcome. Your name and website are optional. Some HTML tags are allowed.