Daniel P. Barron

Whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame.

August 19, 2019

This is a continuation of a previous article. This log has been modified for formatting and spelling, some lines have been removed for being unrelated, and hyperlinks have been added.

CarNut81: I am what most would consider a back slidden Christian, I went to a Christian school.
RichG: CarNut81, well, I'm not judgmental.
__Maks__: What do you mean by "back slidden?"
RichG: CarNut81, I don't really like to talk theology... online I'm interested in folks that are interested in the history and the social aspects of the topic. Or... I'm chill on the topic, and don't want to get involved with folks that want to argue about dogma. Life's to short to argue online. But the web can be awesome to meet and talk with folks with overlapping interests.
CarNut81: Oh, debating or any sort of thing is not my cup of tea anyway.
RichG: CarNut81, but I've been studying the history of the topic seriously since the late 1980s, and am always happy to meet others also interested.
CarNut81: Maks, in short it means I use to follow the Christian lifestyle, now not so much... though the core beliefs are still there too a point.
__Maks__: By "lifestyle" you mean what? Many people would probably mean different things... do you mean just going to church often or?
CarNut81: As for history it really depends on the aspect.
__Maks__: I find history very interesting... but it can kind of be frustrating to talk about it openly... because it's like some countries have a "walt disney" version of their history and when someone tells them differently they get offended.
CarNut81: I don't really go to church very often... my language is less then clean most of the time (though I can be respectful), and I do things that a lot of Christians would preach at me for doing.
Daniel: CarNut81, check out http://atruechurch.info/ and don't go to hell like the rest of the world!
CarNut81: The history of Christianity I have only a basic knowledge of.
__Maks__: In which sense and where do you start counting the history of Christianity? from byzantine times, from the time of Jesus or do you include the history of Jewish people before it also?
CarNut81: Daniel, let's just say my.. It's complicated. lol
__Maks__: You can ask me if you have any questions about history... i'm quite familiar with Christian/Jewish history and history of Israel.
Daniel: CarNut81, let me know if you disagree with our position and I'll answer questions.
__Maks__: Daniel, I looked at your page and from the first few sentences it seems offensive and not based on the Bible to just lump together "Protestantism, Evangelicalism, Catholicism" with Mormonism, Atheism and Islam and to call them all "idolaters"... and I'm not sure what you mean by "manmade Judaism"...
Daniel: True Judaism is Christianity. Man-made is when they try to practice it in denial of Christ. And we have evidence from scripture as to why those denominations are not in the truth.
__Maks__: It's a very serious accusation to accuse someone of idolatry... It's one thing to have some disagreements in interpretation with someone, but accusing someone of "idolatry" is a very serious accusation.i
Daniel: If they don't agree on scripture, they aren't saved and they worship a false god.
CarNut81: There is a difference between religion and having a personal relationship with Christ. Being religious will not get you to heaven... as I said where I am.in my life is complicated.
Daniel: "Personal relationship with Christ" is a meaningless buzz-phrase. Cite Scripture. If you disagree with Scripture, you worship a false Christ, and the relationship leads you to hell.
CarNut81: I don't disagree with scripture; I do how ever have issues with some people's interpretation of Scripture.
Daniel: Check out our site; you'll probably find some Scripture you disagree with.
__Maks__: If someone has a different interpretation of something, it does not necessarily mean that they are an "idolater"... it's a very serious accusation and a very serious offense to accuse an innocent person of something so serious... read what happened when Ruth was falsely accused of idolatry.
CarNut81: Doubtful I can tell you from what I read I do disagree with your interpretation of Scripture.
Daniel: __Maks__, it's not a false accusation. CarNut81, what do you disagree with?
__Maks__: People should not throw accusations lightly... for example, if someone falsely accused you of stealing their phone, you would have a right to demand that their phone be taken and given to you... because, measure for measure and it would be fair for them to lose their phone if hey wanted to take someone else's phone by accusing them of stealing it from them... that's just an example... false witnesses could have even be given a capital punishment by the court in Biblical times depending from what they accused someone of... courts used to take false accusations very seriously.
Daniel: Okay, but we have evidence of these claims. The Bible commands us to expose false teachings.
BillyHW: :/
__Maks__: I'm not saying that you intentionally falsely accused someone... and who say that they are "Christian" these days probably spread false teachings unintentionally... but that does not necessarily make their whole denomination "idolaters" if they interpreted something differently. It depends from what exactly they are saying and from person to person.
Daniel: __Maks__, these people are false Christians; they don't consent to wholesome words.ii And they listen to false teachers when the Bible says believers will flee false teachers.iii
BillyHW: Jesus left us with Apostles, who then ordained successor bishops. And gave them the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.
Daniel: Luke 18:

8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

ljrbot: Luke 18:8 -- I say to you that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?
__Maks__: I don't know did you hear about the Hebrew term "tinok shenishba"... it's often used in Judaism for those who were raised outside of a religious community... if someone who wasn't thought what to believe does something out of ignorance, they wouldn't have been judged the same as someone who intentionally did something bad knowing it was wrong.
Daniel: Where is this found in scripture? Regardless, it doesn't apply because we are discussing people who call themselves christian and should know better.
__Maks__: I'm not sure on which passage was it based, but people weren't judged the same for unintentionally doing something as those who intentionally did something.
CarNut81: Scripture by it's very nature requires a certain amount of interpretation. Not everyone's interpretation is going to be correct. If we could perfectly follow Gods will Christ's sacrifice would not have been necessary. Christ said "no man comes to the father except through me"... one of my favorite scriptures Matthew 7:2iv clearly states we will have to measure up to our own judgments.
__Maks__: And specifically about interpreting the scripture... Someone can't be accused of denying the scripture if he has no intention of denying anything, but he maybe just isn't aware of some passage or he/she maybe heard some different interpretation of something and he/she is unaware of some more traditional interpretation.
CarNut81: Luke 23:34
ljrbot: Luke 23:34 -- And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. But they, dividing his garments, cast lots.
Daniel: CarNut81, it may be that you misinterpret for a time, but you should repent when shown your error.
RichG: Let's face it... everyone's just trying to be happy and gain "peace of mind."
__Maks__: Someone's intention maters a lot... Even if someone theoretically only did good things in practice... If he had bad intentions, but he unintentionally did something good, some of those "good deeds" would not count.
Daniel: If you have good intentions but you don't believe, you are an abomination to God, even your prayers.
__Maks__: If people have good intentions and want to believe something, but they have issues believing, others should help them with issues... Someone shouldn't be called an "abomination" like that just because they might have some personal struggles... most people have at least some personal struggles that they are trying to fix.
Daniel: This is how to help, by showing the truth. Luke 18:

22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.

24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

__Maks__: Read again what I wrote... I clearly said "others should help them with issues"... I didn't say that no one should talk to them about it.
ljrbot: Luke 18:22 -- Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.
Daniel: Christ didn't say "okay well keep following me and hopefully you'll sell all that you have eventually."
__Maks__: I don't know why are you quoting that... did you sell everything you have and went to live in a monastery and the computer you are using now was just borrowed from someone?
Daniel: No, and it's not a commandment for all believers to sell everything. Although believers should forsake all that they have. (give it away in their heart) But the point is, Christ was brutally honest. "You are not saved if you don't do as I say."
__Maks__: But many people don't know what to believe exactly because they were thought... That's my point.
Daniel: Okay, well I am showing you now what you don't believe. What are you going to do about it?
__Maks__: What are you showing me and how could you possibly "know" what I or someone else believes or "doesn't" believe?
Daniel: You disagree with me on Scripture or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. It seems your error is at least that you believe in ecumenicism. That there can be many paths to salvation. When the Bible clearly says there is one narrow path to truth.v
__Maks__: I didn't say that about "many paths"... I was simply stating that you shouldn't be lumping people who want to believe in the Bible, but they maybe have some different interpretations, together with Mormons or Muslims or Atheists who have different beliefs hat aren't compatible with the Bible. I wouldn't even call all Muslims idolaters... even though I'm pretty confident that Islam is obviously wrong and there are teaching in Islam that would be considered idolatry... But not all who identify as Muslims believe those things... And many of them just don't know any better.
Daniel: If you can't even call all Muslims idolaters... there's a serious problem going on.
__Maks__: I'm not saying that someone shouldn't talk to them about it... I'm saying that someone shouldn't accuse them of something without knowing what they personally believe and what were they thought or weren't thought.
Daniel: Okay, well I know enough about you, you are not saved and you are going to hell. You need to repent.
__Maks__: Read again what I wrote... many Muslims would probably be idolaters... But what someone is or isn't depends from that specific person, not just what some paper says about are they Muslims or whatever.
Daniel: If someone calls them self a Muslim, they are an idolater.
RichG: __Maks__: I don't think you could call ANY Muslims "idolitors". They don't have any images, let alone statues. An idol is a statue / figure that one confuses with their god. It could not possibly be applied to a Muslim person.
Daniel: Their idol is their false god. For some people their idol is their own belly.vi An idol doesn't need to be a specially carved thing.
__Maks__: Let me ask you this... Imagine you were born in Turkey... And you just weren't raised with the Bible... But you are maybe from some secular family and you just call yourself Muslim, but you don't really follow Quran... But if you were open about learning about the Bible... Why would someone call you an "idolater" then?
Daniel: __Maks__, I wasn't raised with the Bible. My parents are atheists. And in the example you posed, the answer is yes they are still idolatrous, for simply not believing in the true God of the Bible.
__Maks__: RichG, idolatry is not just about statues... The Hebrew term that is generally translated as idolatry is "avodah zarah" (foreign worship)... Someone can have pictures that don't fall into that category and something can fall into that category even without any images. Many Muslims seem to have a belief in "Umm Al-Kithab" (the "Mother of the Book") to which they ascribe divine attribute of "Not being created."
Daniel: All Muslims deny the divinity of Christ.
RichG: __Maks__: Then one should use the term "foreign worship." I was talking about the the issue of idols. No Muslim is a "idol" worshiper in that sense, since they don't have any images, let alone statues / figurines.
Daniel: One should use the term used by Scripture, and it is idolatry.
RichG: __Maks__: Now... Buddhists... The god some awesome statues / figurines. But... in their case, they don't actually consider the Buddha a god... so again...that wouldn't actually be idolatry either.
Daniel: They follow a false god whether they say so or not.
RichG: __Maks__: Let's face it. The term isn't really relevant today. It usually just shows the person using it to be very very odd.
Daniel: "Let's face it, don't believe Scripture because Scripture just isn't cool today, you weirdo."vii
CarNut81: Daniel, in my opinion you lack one key fruit of the the spirit which is compassion.
Daniel: It is out of compassion that i warn you. Proverbs 27:

6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend,
But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

ljrbot: Proverbs 27:6 -- Better are the wounds of a friend, than the deceitful kisses of an enemy.
Daniel: Jude 1:

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

ljrbot: Jude 1:3 -- Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.
BillyHW: What are you guys going on about?
CarNut81: Well, in all honesty I don't know about anyone else but I am tired of being beaten over the head with the Bible. So good night.
__Maks__: Daniel, do you realize that you can distance secular people from religion with attitudes like those? I'm not saying not to criticize someone's behavior if they do something bad and to try to explain them... But jumping to conclusions without even knowing someone and accusing them of something doesn't usually seem to help get someone interested in religion. And see... carnut just left.
Daniel: Nothing can take the elect from God's hand.viii

  1. Amen. That's why we make it.
  2. 1 Timothy 6:
    3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

  3. John 10:
    5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

  4. Matthew 7:
    2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

  5. Matthew 7:
    13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

  6. Philippians 3:
    18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.


  7. Darwin: I wouldn't get into name calling like that.

    I wasn't calling him a weirdo, but this is a line I probably shouldn't have sent.

  8. John 10:
    28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

    Darwin: Indeed, at the same time Paul says, “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.” (2 Timothy 2:10)

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