Daniel P. Barron

Daniel: VirtualPreacher, do you think that you believe the Bible?
Ross votes VP believes the bible
Sara_Ks: This should be interesting. VirtualPreacher, Wake UP!
Ross: Later gator.
Fen: Daniel, is it more important to believe the Bible or to have a relationship with the Author? ⁱ
everFeel: Sounds like necrophilia..
VirtualPreacher: No, Daniel, I know I believe the bible. Do you believe the bible?
barabbas`: There are numerous authors to the Bible.
THERetroGamerNY: That topic has been done to death, everFeel.
Fen: barabbas`, I meant *THE* Author, meaning the One who inspired the others. ;-)
everFeel: lol THERetroGamerNY.
THERetroGamerNY: :P
Sardaukar: Hi, VirtualPreacher.
VirtualPreacher: Hey, Sardaukar, how you been.
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, yes I believe it, and I know that most people who think they Believe it actually don't.
Fen: Daniel, care you answer my question?
VirtualPreacher: I'm not sure most who say they believe it think they believe it.
karstensrage: I believe this part. (KJV) Hebrews 11:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Daniel: VirtualPreacher, for example, do you believe that God kills people?
karstensrage: That's God telling you its made up and only atheists get into heaven.
VirtualPreacher: Of course He does.
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, do you believe it is wrong for a man to have multiple wives?
VirtualPreacher: That would depend on the law of the land where that person resides.
Daniel: How so? The Bible says there is no law against love.
VirtualPreacher: The bible isn't a book about "right and wrong." ⁱⁱ Have we spoken on here before, Daniel?
Daniel: I don't think so. Do you believe that it is wrong to masturbate?
VirtualPreacher: 1. The phrase "there is no law against love" is not in the bible to my recollection. 2. If it were, what would that have to do with the question?
VirtualPreacher: "Wrong"? It is not mentioned in the bible. ⁱⁱⁱ
Daniel: Galatians 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

VirtualPreacher: Are you suggesting that scripture speaks to polygamy?
Daniel: I'm saying that the Bible does not forbid a man from having multiple wives.
VirtualPreacher: Or are you one of those people that takes passages that speak generally to things like "love" then try to assert your definition of "love" and demand it is required in the bible. It does if it is prohibited in the location where you reside. A christian is to abide by the laws of man.
Fen: (NIV) Deuteronomy 17:

17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold. ^iv

Daniel: Not if that law goes against scripture, VirtualPreacher.
VirtualPreacher: You are nowhere commanded to have multiple wives. So it is therefore impossible to claim you are required to do so.
mugz: In the new testament it says bishops and elders must be husbands of one wife.
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, scripture says there is no law against love.
VirtualPreacher: Unless of course you are a troll. in which case that is of course what you would say. Troll it is then.
Daniel: But interesting, it seems you agree that the Bible doesn't forbid polygyny in general.
mugz: Except for bishops and elders. In the church.
VirtualPreacher: I have no choice but to agree with that. God himself told David he would have given him *more* wives had he asked. ^v
Sara_Ks: It does say marriage is between one man and one woman.
Daniel: Do you believe that God causes evil and deception?
mugz: No.
VirtualPreacher: Instead, David chose to seduce a woman that was married to another.
everFeel: Having multiples wives sounds more like a punishment.
VirtualPreacher: God creates evil, disaster, trouble, and sends the deceiver to deceive.
Daniel: Correct.
VirtualPreacher: Yay, I win.
mugz: God punishes evil.
Daniel: Do you believe that the Bible forbids the use of drugs?
VirtualPreacher: No.
mugz: No.
Daniel: Oh, I don't think you answered me on masturbation. Is that wrong?
mugz: But we are instructed to obey reasonable civil laws.
VirtualPreacher: Masturbation is not mentioned in the bible.
mugz: I think it is. It's not what I would call "prefection."
Daniel: Is it wrong to judge people?
VirtualPreacher: That depends what you mean by "judge."
mugz: It's the duty of government to punish wrongdoers.
Daniel: With righteous judgment, according to what the Bible says.
Sara_Ks: Genesis 23:

23 And Adam said:

“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

VirtualPreacher: We are to use correct biblical "judgment" about things, situations, people.
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, does the Bible forbid slavery? ^vi
mugz: No.
VirtualPreacher: That does not mean "judgment" as described in the OT which involved stoning people to death etc.
mugz: But in the church, there is neither jew nor greek nor male nor female nor slave nor free - we are all one. ^vii Jesus did not come to establish civil laws, he came to change men's hearts.
Philosophism5: Hey.
TrollT: Jesus was established in folk tales to ameliorate social unrest and difficulties of tribal strife. Hi there.
Daniel: Hey, Philosophism5, do you think that you believe the Bible? ^viii
VirtualPreacher: Daniel, you keep asking questions that reveal you are a troll. I suggest reworking your routine to more fully obfuscate your purpose.
Philosophism5: Daniel, nah. ^ix
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, I'm trying to find something we disagree on.
VirtualPreacher: Do you agree that you are a troll?
Daniel: No.
mugz: Of all the gods, Jesus is the best. :)
VirtualPreacher: Mission accomplished. We disagree.
Daniel: I mean on scripture. :p
VirtualPreacher: You are a troll. :-)
Daniel: You disagree with most of the chatters here so far.
TrollT: Daniel is insistent but I don't yet get the sense that he is trolling so much as viciously accusatory on a regular basis.
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, do you believe that God is a man?
TrollT: VP, You may be correct.
VirtualPreacher: I believe the bible. That does not mean I believe it means what *you* insist that it means.
mugz: There is hope for everyone including Daniel.
Daniel: Well so far we agree on what it means, mostly.. ^x
Philosophism5: What a line.
TrollT appreciates your struggle with him in a civil manner, VP.
VirtualPreacher: But questions framed like this: "do you believe the bible forbids x" are a priori, begging the question.
Daniel: Well, I linked you to my churches website but I think you ignored it. ^xi
Philosophism5: Deliberately referring to someone whose in the conversation by third person is just a weak move.
Daniel: So I'm forced to go about it in this manner.
VirtualPreacher: Because "the bible" does not forbid or permit anything. God has forbidden some to do certain things, and to others has said nothing. like the old "why does the bible forbid eating lobster" etc.
Daniel: It doesn't forbid eating lobster.
VirtualPreacher: Right.
mugz: (KJV) Revelation 22:

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

VirtualPreacher: But under the law of Moses, the children of Israel *were* forbidden from eating lobster.
[e]: VP, good to see ya. :)
mugz: Be who you wanna be.
VirtualPreacher: Hey, e, how are you?
[e]: I am okay. Hope all is well with you.
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, that's debatable. it says don't eat things from the sea that don't have "scales" which is a word that can apply to what lobsters have "plating" or "armor." ^xii
VirtualPreacher: Doing well, thank you.
[e]: Easter season is on.
TrollT: The new dispensation is about consensus, not written letters of law.
[e]: I need my shell fish. Never could be Jewish I guess.
TrollT: You can see its specifications in the gospels and letters.
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, is God a man?
TrollT: They relate to not letting your brother (member of the church) stumble.
Philosophism5: God is a woman, I remember reading that headline somewhere. ^xiii
TrollT: P5, Seems pretty silly.
VirtualPreacher: God entered into the world *as* a man.
Daniel: What are you trying to say? That He appeared as one but isn't?
Philosophism5: It was a pretty reliable source, so.
VirtualPreacher: Not trying to say. I did say.
Daniel: Exodus 15:

3 The Lord is a man of war;
The Lord is His name.

VirtualPreacher: God existed before man existed. While man existed, God entered into the world *as* a man, for a specific purpose.
mugz: Daniel, it's impossible for God to become a man, who do you think He is, God? :P
Philosophism5: [laughing] Get verse quoted.
Daniel: Genesis 3:

8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Genesis 32:

24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.

The Bible says that God is a man.
VirtualPreacher: "The bible" also says God is "not a man." Thus: troll.
Daniel: Indeed, not a man that should sin.
Philosophism5: Logic 101
VirtualPreacher: Trying to jack with Christians using double binds.
Daniel: Numbers 23:

19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

VirtualPreacher: Probably even think it's clever, or new.
Daniel: So which is true? It says He is a man and not a man.
VirtualPreacher: Both are true.
Daniel: So then God is a man.
Philosophism5: That's called a contradiction. Normally, in logic, that's a bad thing.
VirtualPreacher: God entered the world *as* a man. Yet God existed before man existed, and created man. Therefore *not* a man, and yet, *a man*.
Daniel: Was there a time that God wasn't a man?
VirtualPreacher: Yes.
TrollT: Not established: God; not established: Godman; not established: godman existed; not established: came in.
Daniel: Hebrews 13:

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

TrollT: Given your consonance on the Biblical prerequisites.... You only need to agree as to these latter.
VirtualPreacher: Jesus Christ existed before he entered the world *as a man*.
Daniel: Revelation 13:

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

VirtualPreacher: Your double binds are old hat, Daniel.
TrollT: And you can attempt to use your scripture to support this.
dani_: Hello meme's.
TrollT: Since you both find it valuable.
Daniel: It says that Christ doesn't change, and that He was slain before creation.
VirtualPreacher: Your kung fu is weak. (KJV) John 1:

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Note it is a matter of the *timeline*. "Made flesh."
Daniel: So then Christ wasn't the same yesterday?
VirtualPreacher: Citation needed.
Daniel: Already did.
VirtualPreacher: (KJV) Hebrews 13:

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

I see. So that must mean he did not ever go to sleep. Or die. Or rise from the dead... Since, as you so cleverly point out...he "does not change."
Daniel: Am I not the same when I'm sleeping?
VirtualPreacher: Naturally also he must have worn the same clothes everyday. I'm sure the apostles loved that. ^xiv
Daniel: The Bible says Christ has always been slain.
Philosophism5: I like how these theological debates are so quickly settled. We can always just check against the Bible and all our disputes come to an end. It's nice when you have the infallible word of God for reference. ^xv
VirtualPreacher: Yes, the bible does this to some people. It is somewhat like one of those Japanese game shows.
Philosophism5: Really testifies to how well written the text is, not to mention the genius of God's handiwork, endowing his human creations with such nimble minds that respond to evidence so swiftly.
VirtualPreacher: Where the sucker tries to run across the slippery bridge as hidden foam covered paddles emerge to knock them into the mud.
Daniel: I'm not trying to play a gotcha game with you. I care for your life.
VirtualPreacher: If I believed that for one second I'd walk in front of a truck. lol
Daniel: I don't know why you'd have reason to doubt me on this.
VirtualPreacher: That is the oldest "gotcha" game in the book. And I've seen (probably) every one of them.
Philosophism5: Yeah, does seem like he has a better point. Your point about wearing the same clothes and stuff are obviously a red herring, the key point is about the unchanging nature of Christ's character or personal identity, if you will. Not some incidental properties like his clothes or whatever.
VirtualPreacher: Mostly many long years of experience.
Daniel: So then you are judging me based on appearance and not by scripture? ^xvi
VirtualPreacher: The body of flesh taken on by Christ at the incarnation is indeed an incidental property. Thank you.
Philosophism5: There, debate settled. Okay lets do: how tall is God? Next.
VirtualPreacher: Daniel, if I were to "judge" you, I'd probably just hit you with some rocks. Instead I'm just calling you out as a troll, and going to find something more useful to do with my time.
everFeel: Debating heresay ^xvii is fun. Continue..
Philosophism5: [What] kind of idea of judging do you have, "hit you with some rocks", what are you a sociopath?
Ham_: Philosophism5, you really missing the reference, or do you just want to call VirtualPreacher names?
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, I find contending for the faith to be the most useful thing to do with my time.
THERetroGamerNY: No cussing. No abbreviations of swear words. No masked swear words. Thank you. ^xviii
Daniel: Jude 1:

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Philosophism5: Oh sorry, noted. Also, is this that reference about throwing the first stone or something?
Ham_: OT punishments, I imagine.
Philosophism5: And yes, I really do want to call VP names, I don't like how he debated this guy.
VirtualPreacher: Quibbling with obvious trolls is not my idea of "contending for the faith." lol
Ham_: Philosophism5: What would calling him names do for you? Other than get you devoiced?
Philosophism5: Makes me feel very very good about myself.
Ham_: Weird life you live, I guess.
VirtualPreacher: "Jesus said he is the door...if you do not believe that Jesus has a doorknob, you obviously do not believe the bible" type of "debates". useless waste of time and energy, and not very entertaining. ^xix
Philosophism5: I guess so.
Daniel: VirtualPreacher, okay well I'm not gonna press the issue if you're not interested. May God save you!
Philosophism5: You do realize both of you guys are saved right? This particular debate really ain't that important, I think you ought to focus more on saving those not already converted. If I knew someone was about to get run over by a truck on the road, I would rather go pull them off the road then debate the velocity of the vehicle with someone on the side of the road.
Daniel: Matthew 7:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

VirtualPreacher: I'd rather eat my dinner while it's hot.
VirtualPreacher leaves the room.
Philosophism5: Can I call him names now that he's gone? Or is that impolite?
TrollT: So the problem with attempting to resolve matters of this sort here is that y'all are not part of the same church.
THERetroGamerNY: Yeah, just be happy he's gone.
TrollT: Don't call people names, please, when they are here or gone.
Philosophism5: Alright, good rule.

1. I've already warned this guy, and I ignore him and most others throughout this conversation. ^
2. Oof. I missed this line, I now realize as I edit this article. Of course the Bible is about right and wrong. How else can you know what is good or bad without God saying so? ^
3. I missed this one too! I end up asking him this again a little later. I didn't realize he was answering the masturbation question here. I usually combine consecutive lines by the same user, but in this case I'm leaving it apart for clarity. ^
4. This means don't have "too many" wives. A number is not specified, but we know from other parts of scripture that two, ten, or even hundreds of wives is not too many. ^
5. 2 Samuel 12:
   

   7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more!

    ^

6. Apparently VirtualPreacher didn't answer this one. I think I mistook mugz's answer for his. ^
7. Galatians 3:
   

   28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

   This isn't a prohibition against slavery, or else it is also saying you cannot be free! Or a man, or a woman! ^

8. Besides Philosophism5 and VirtualPreacher, I had previously warned everyone active in this chat. ^
9. I then sent him a private message with a warning and a link to A True Church. And he indicated he got the message. ^
10. Except the thing I missed, and that it is wrong to have multiple wives just because you live in a jurisdiction that forbids it. To clarify that point, it's illegal to get multiple licenses. It's not illegal to have sex with multiple women. ^
11. This took place in private message. ^
12. Leviticus 11:
    

    9 ‘These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat. 10 But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you.

    See "Clean Shrimp?" ^

13. He is! ^
14. LOL. ^
15. Pretty sure this is sarcasm. ^
16. John 7:
    

    24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

     ^

17. Not sure if this is a typo for heresy, or if he meant hearsay. I had already warned this guy in private message and he indicated he doesn't believe. ^
18. I cleaned up the offending acronym for my article. Philosophism5's "[What]." ^
19. I never said such a thing. ^