Daniel P. Barron

For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Wednesday, March 20, 2019

This log has been reviewed by Darwin Fish, and his comment has been added as a footnote.

a-drumming-dog: So I've grown up in the church, and I'm remaining abstinent until I get married. Sex has always been a massive thing that people/preachers have focused on, almost like it's the sin of all sins. I've struggled with sexual temptation since I was in junior high, and it's honestly starting to wear on me. I'm sort of frustrated with our culture and the standard answer that evangelical churches tend to give, since everyone gets married so late these days. It's tough when the only answer I ever get is that I have to repress all of my sexual desire for maybe 10-15 YEARS before I get married or else I'm impure; that's a crazy long time. But once you get married its a free-for-all of course. It's not like I can just get married whenever I want to. And the churches I've attended have been good churches, but it's almost as if the sentiment at them has been that if I'm attracted sexually to a girl at all then I've sinned automatically. I have always felt a weird taboo talking about sex with other Christians, and it's frustrating for me because it's something so natural and necessary to our being. It's what continues the human race for heaven's sake. I guess this is basically just a rant. I'm not really against abstinence at all, just voicing some of my frustration. Any one else here had these kind of thoughts or have tips on how to deal with this?

Daniel: You don’t need to wait any time. Get married today and have sex.

boredtxan: That is horrible advice!

Daniel: How so?

paperboynik: Because the incentive behind marriage shouldn't just be sex.

Daniel: Sounds like they get along pretty well. Obviously if he doesn't like her he should stop making out with her.

Wardiazon: I just want to add on to the other user's comments here, in countries like the UK, the process is a religious AND legal one. I agree that in the past marriage was an agreement - but that would be in the presence of friends and family, essentially making it a ceremony.

Furthermore, the legality of marriage in the modern world shows a commitment and in our world of swindlers and tricksters who might prey on vulnerable young people, we need laws to protect individuals.

Daniel: No matter where you are in the world, marriage is as simple as saying so. It's as simple as never leaving that person. You don't need a law to do that.

Wardiazon: I really disagree, without a legal validation it is very easy to be hoodwinked.

Daniel: Hoodwinked by who? And I think it's the other way around. If you get legally married, the woman can use it to steal half your stuff.

firewire167: Gotta get that prenuptial and then your fine.

Daniel: There is no Biblical requirement for involving the state in a marriage. Not that it's forbidden either. But I'm not sure who you think is going to be harmed by not doing so. If both husband and wife are believers, they will not harm each other. (Ephesians 5:28i) If one doesn't believe, they shouldn't get married at all. (2 Corinthians 6:14ii) If both don't believe, it doesn't matter what they do.

firewire167: This is all well and good but in the modern world marriage is required for certain civil benefits involving couples such as for taxes and visitation in hospitals. So involving the government is usually a decent idea.

Daniel: That may be, but it's not a Biblical requirement. My point is, two could be married between themselves and God; there is no need to make a big thing about it or put it off to some later date. Then sometime later they could get it licensed for whatever legal benefits if they choose.

I think a lot of young people think marriage is some big scary event when it doesn't need to be. I encourage young lovers to just tell each other they are married rather than feel like they are "living in sin."

boredtxan: A lasting marriage is founded on a thousand other things besides sexual attractiveness. If you let impatience for sex drive you to get married you will end up divorced or miserable or both.

Daniel: 1 Corinthians 7:

9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

A lasting marriage is founded on the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible, you might think it's okay to divorce. Two people who believe the Bible should have no problem staying together. The fact that they find each other attractive makes this an obvious decision.

The only reason I can imagine this is such a dilemma to them is that they don't believe the Bible. And you probably don't either. Check out A True Church. Don't go to hell like the rest of the world.

boredtxan: You are patently insane if you think mutual lust and baptism certificates are all you need to know about someone before you marry. The Bible also tells people to be wise.

Daniel: I guess it could be more of a decision for a woman since she can only have one husband. But for a man, it's not really that big a deal.

rob1sydney: The bible says it’s okay to divorce.

Daniel: No it doesn't. (Matthew 19:8iii)

rob1sydney: Deuteronomy 24 New International Version (NIV)

24 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,

Daniel: That's addressed in the verse I gave you. It's not okay for a believer to divorce.

rob1sydney: If you believe the codes as set out in the Old Testament, which you do in multiple other areas, then divorce is totally okay.

If you believe that the word of Jesus replaces the mosaic laws then his second greatest commandment, to love thy neighbor must over rule slavery and requiring women to be subservient, most punishments, homosexuals , and so many other things you find acceptable.

Daniel: Women are commanded to be subservient in the New Testament. (1 Peter 3:1iv) And the context there, the "likewise," is regarding slaves.

Homosexuality is also condemned in the New Testament. (1 Corinthians 6:9v)

rob1sydney: Okay, you're an adherent to the moral code of the NT. Let’s see.. Do we agree that bestiality and incest are immoral? Where in the NT are they codified as such?

So have you decided to support bestiality and incest on the basis it isn’t mentioned in the NT?

Daniel: Those things are called an abomination in the OT.vi They haven't stopped being abominations. (Revelation 21:27vii)

rob1sydney: If you use revelations 21:27 to import everything from the OT into the NT, then you have blown your whole argument about relying on the NT for your moral code. You open up the whole of our previous discussion about the OT to question again, a point you have conceded. Are you ready to get back to defense of all the OT rules and regulations whether they appear in the NT or not?

Daniel: I rely on the whole Bible for morality. None of it is to be thrown out. We do not need to follow all the OT law. But things that are an abomination are still and abomination.

rob1sydney: Great, let’s go. So what happens when the old and New Testament conflict as is the case with divorce? How do you know beard trimming as listed in Leviticus 19viii along with stealing and making idols is not also a sin.

Daniel: The NT explains that Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. (Matthew 19:8) It has never been a good thing to do.

Beard trimming is not a matter of abomination. Stealing is called a sin in the NT. (1 Corinthians 6:10ix) Same with false idols. (1 Corinthians 6:9x)

rob1sydney: Anyone who wants a divorce can simply play the hard heart card and bingo, god approves. It a very easy escape clause.

If you are using revelations as your basis for importing OT morality you will need to go beyond abomination, whatever that means, you will need to include, “anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie” ( revelations 21 KJV).

So how do you know what is and what is not included in this list from the OT. Why doesn’t Leviticus 19 count as a list of items that defile or are an abomination? Idols? Stealing? Beard trim? How do you know what’s in and what’s out?

Why is incest an abomination, where do you learn that from?

Daniel: A believer won't divorce. Of course a believer can do any sin because of the hardness of their heart; that doesn't make it good. They'd have to repent. Will you say repentance and forgiveness is an "escape clause" ? Why not go our whole lives sinning and repent at the end? Because God can end it whenever He pleases, and at a time we cannot predict.

Where does Leviticus say that how you trim your beard can defile you?

To your last question, Leviticus 18:

24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

rob1sydney: Divorce The old law was clear, you could write a ticket and divorce your wife. It was not a sin then, it was the moral thing to do. There were even rules about slave girls you married that you could not on sell them. Again not a sin at the time of Leviticus at all, nothing about hard hearts then, it was accepted codified and regularized. There was no need for repentance as it was all good.

Defile How do we know what’s in the defile camp or not. Is stealing defiling as that’s in the Leviticus list? Is idol crafting defiling as that’s in the list? Is homosexuality defiling as that’s in the list Is beard trimming defiling as that in the list

Leviticus 18. Lots of words about abominations but nothing that says the Revelation's use of the word includes incest and bestiality.

Daniel: Again not a sin at the time of Leviticus at all, nothing about hard hearts then. We know from Christ that their hearts were hard. Actually we know from the Old Testament that their hearts were hard too. (Psalm 95:8xi)

rob1sydney: So Christ says they had hard hearts and that waived away the fact that god previously positively allowed it. When it was stated in the past there was no mention of hard hearts. Psalms referred to quarrels in the desert, nothing about divorce, but if your saying their hard hearts mean every rule from the OT is invalidated, okay fair enough. Is that your position?

And we still have the problem of not knowing when something is wrong or not as revelations is non specific on things like incest and bestiality.

Daniel: I don't have that problem.

rob1sydney: Because you can oic the OT when it works for you and reject the OT and use the NT when it suits you. On divorce you reject the OT and go for the NT. On incest you use the OT. On slavery you accept it as it’s in the NT. On beard trimming you reject it as it’s not in the NT. You have a series of inconsistent positions that amount to your own personal selection of morals that have been randomly selected from the scriptures.

  1. Ephesians 5:
    28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

  2. 2 Corinthians 6:
    14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

  3. Matthew 19:
    8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

  4. 1 Peter 3:
    1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,

  5. 1 Corinthians 6:
    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,


  6. Darwin: I wouldn't really expect an unbeliever to understand differences between the Old and New Covenants and the "fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation." (Hebrews 9:10)

  7. Revelation 21:
    27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

  8. Leviticus 19:
    27 You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard.

  9. 1 Corinthians 6:
    10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

  10. 1 Corinthians 6:
    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

  11. Psalm 95:
    8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
    As in the day of trial in the wilderness,

Leave a Reply

Your words may be altered or altogether purged in accordance with my preference to abstain from publishing statements that may be unnecessarily offensive to other readers. Your criticism is welcome. Your name and website are optional. Some HTML tags are allowed.