This is a continuation of a previous article.
Deanr`: Daniel, check this out: Darwin Fish: A Critique http://www.tektonics.org/af/fishd01.php.
Sayorj: Well Sweetheart. We need more and more people with Sweethearts. :o)
Deanr`: Daniel, here's another one: http://www.a-voice.org/discern/god-man.htm.
Sweetheart: Yes you do, Sayorj.
Daniel: Woah, cool, I don't think I've seen those yet.
It is not typically the focus of this ministry to name names of false prophets and cult leaders
Why not? the Bible tells us to expose them. i Hypocrisy right off the bat. "Darwin is bad because he exposes others, so let us now expose him."
He proclaims that "God the Father is a -man-"
What?? The father is a man??
Deanr`: Do you believe God is a man?
Daniel: Yes.
Deanr`: Wow.
Daniel:
picketting with both visual and verbal abuses.
How is it an "abuse" to warn people of their false ways?
Sayorj: Who are you to warn anyone?
Daniel: Sayorj, a saint.
Sayorj: lol Said who? You?
Daniel:
His followers, of course, believe that they are the -only- True Christians existing on earth
This isn't true and we never said it.
Daniel: Sayorj, says God.
Deanr`: Daniel, you're in some serious error.
Sayorj: A self-proclaimed-claim of virtue is grave form of arrogance. Don't blame God for your ignorance - that's another grave sin. So warn your-self and keep busy in correcting it.
Daniel:
The Hinge: "Jehovah is a man of war; Jehovah is His name." (Ex15:3)
That isn't the "hinge" -- the Bible has many verses that identify God as a man.
Deanr`: Ahh, here we go. Here's a site that I totally trust that talks about Darwin Fish and his "A True Church": https://carm.org/a-true-church
Sayorj: ?kjv num 23:19
pete-: Num23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (KJV)
Daniel: Ah, I've seen that one, Deanr`.
Deanr`: Such an answer would cause a person to be confused and fearful, wondering if he might not be saved because he doesn't have a close-to-perfect understanding of doctrinal details as prescribed by this group. This is very dangerous. CARM recommends everyone to stay away from this church; It is dangerous.
Daniel: Sayorj, that verse is addressed in our article http://atruechurch.info/lordisaman.html.
Mortal men both lie and repent (Psalm 116:11; Job 42:6). They say things and do not hold to their word. Note the wording here, "God is not a man that He should lie." (Numbers 23:19), and "For He is not a man, that He should relent." (1 Samuel 15:29). God is being compared to mortal sinful men who act in ways that He does not.
Well, by using this same strategy, one can teach, FROM SCRIPTURE, that "there is no god". Yes, indeed, the Bible says it. Find it in Ps53:1. Ah, but... if you quote the entire sentence, "The fool has said in his heart, There is no god".
This is not at all comparable to our argument.
Deanr`: Membership: Approximately 50. Origins: Approximately 1993. Do you attend that church, Daniel?
Daniel: Yes.
Deanr`: Do you still have around 50 people who attend?
Daniel:
But Mr. Fish quotes several times thoughout his treatise, that the Lord "..is a man, a man of war!" Notice what he has added. Adding the comma, and inserting a second instance of "a man"
He's not quoting Scripture in these instances.
Sayorj: Daniel, first focus on earlier verse you quoted - exo 15.3 there the term is 'ml'ch'mah - laa'km - laac'hm - which means Warrior - not man of war.
Daniel: Deanr`, I think it's more like 30 now.
Sayorj: Man of war is false or derogatory translation.
Daniel: Sayorj, the biblical Hebrew translates literally to man of war.
Sayorj: So if read correctly 15.3 states - God/Jehpvah is Warrior. False. Warrior and man of war are entirely different. And you used this derogatory translation to prove i,e God is man. How lame.
Deanr`: Daniel, God is not a man, He's Spirit. It's just amazing to me that you've allowed yourself to get hoodwinked by this dude.
Sayorj: And frankly it happens when innocent people like you don't know Hebrew or Aramaic or even Greek. Wolves in sheep-clothing deceive them.
Daniel: Sayorj, there are other verses that indicate God is a man.
Deanr`: I mean, c'mon, where's the common sense??
Daniel:Common sense leads to hell.ii
Sayorj: Daniel, there is no such verse.
Deanr`: Daniel, right, so throw your brains out the window, believe in what some guy proclaims.
Sayorj: OR you would end up doing false-drogatory translations as you just did i,e man of war instead of Warrior. God is Love - clearly said in the Gospel and also God is spirit etc.
Deanr`: That's just nutty, Daniel. That's what Jim Jones and David Koresh did.
Daniel:
Well, what he did to Exe15:3, in taking a few words isolated out of context; here he does the opposite. He -adds- to God's Word.
He hasn't added to the word. He explains how this verse can be true in light of the fact that God in indeed a man.
Sayorj: There are also countless verses stating - blood and flesh can't enter heaven or kingdom of heaven. iii And you assuming God is blood and flesh i,e man.
Daniel: Yes, God has flesh and blood. iv
Sayorj: :o) Pagans would agree you. I disagree.
Daniel:
He created them male and female..." I ask then, Where did the "female" come from?
God is also feminine.
Sayorj: o_O
Deanr`:
A note from Phil Johnson: I've removed my files on the "A True Church" cult because I have not been able to keep up with recent sweeping changes that have affected that group. One of the group's key founding members, Al Soto (who was mentioned on almost every page of my original exposé) left the group a few years ago, repented of his involvement there, and is pursuing discipleship in a Bible-believing church.
Daniel:
Perhaps this explains why he puts women down, in his writing
He doesn't "put women down" -- he says exactly what the Bible says about women.
Daniel: Deanr`, ah yes that's from atruecult.
Deanr`: Do you know Al Soto, Daniel? "Among their more serious errors, they deny the doctrine of the Trinity and teach that God is human."
Daniel: Deanr`, I've met him. He had already left by the time I joined. But he owns a coffee shop in town.
Deanr`: Perhaps you should track him down, given your common involvement... listen to what he has to say?
Sayorj: Although religion doesn't forbid believers to interpret the Word of God - but this doesn't mean 'all interpretations' are true.
Daniel: Deanr`, I tried to talk to him about it but he stopped showing up after I revealed that I was in the church.
So, if no one can see God and live, what about all those appearances of "God" in the O.T.?
Nothing is impossible with God. v
Deanr`: Darwin Fish:The FAQ https://web.archive.org/web/20170718215326/http://www.atruecult.com/dfishfaq.htm
Rogg: Daniel, seems to me, your goal is to go around and tell Christians they are not Christians and that they don't know what they are doing, then you publish it on your site. You are like one of these militant Christians.
Daniel: Rogg, my goal is to warn people.
Rogg: Sure it is.
Sayorj: Warn yourself.
Rogg: Seems from what I've read on your blog, you think you know everything and that you are perfect and all knowing telling others what to do, and how dumb they are.
Deanr`: Daniel, have you seen that last link I posted?
Daniel: Yes.
Rogg: Seems all you do, and your goal is to judge others.
Daniel: Rogg, judging is believing.
Rogg: Judge yourself first.
Daniel:
A reader asked us to have a look at the teachings of one "Darwin Fish," a cultic figure who claims to be the head of the only group of people heading for heaven
Again, we don't make this claim.
Rogg: Who cares, people make claims every day for millenia. Nothing new.
Daniel:
and probably serve mainly the purpose of getting me added to Fish's "bad list".
As if.
Rogg: There are all kinds of insane people out there.
Deanr`: Daniel, if you're read all that... and the other links I provided.... and are still not convinced, then there's probably nothing anyone else can say that will convince you.
Sayorj: Fortunately - Judge - is authority - given by God - otherwise extremists could ruin the beauty of existence pretending to be judges. :o)
Daniel:
at one point he even decreed that communion served in small cups and with small crackers was "unbiblical" and resulted in condemnation.
Where is this? I've never heard this teaching. vi
Deanr`: "There's a clear reason for this. Darwin Fish hates Christianity, so he designed his own religion." --Phil Johnson
Daniel:
he responds to someone who used non-Biblical sources from the time of the Bible to inform the context of the Bible
Well yeah, why should we rely on extra-biblical sources for a biblical argument?
Deanr`:
Being self-deceived, he thinks that is a false accusation. He insists he hates only false Christianity. But if you ask him to name any living or dead representatives of true Christianity after the apostolic era, he will have to admit that outside his own little cult of followers he does not know of any "true" Christians (by his definition).
Sayorj: Extremist.
Deanr`:
And if you decline to follow him on every single point of doctrine, Darwin will declare you a false Christian, too.
Daniel:
We are sure, however, that if Fish found a word in the English Bible he did not know, he would not reject using a dictionary to find out what it meant.
He goes by the Greek Hebrew and Aramaic.
Deanr`:
Darwin does not even see that this is the very height of arrogance, even though he once admitted to me that many people have told him he exudes carnal pride. Darwin obviously finds it easy to dismiss such criticisms, because he has already concluded that anyone who disagrees with him is a hell-bound heretic anyway. Thus he has hardened his heart against any real correction.
Sayorj: lol As he gone for man of war?
Daniel: Dude, you already linked it, why are you pasting it?
Sayorj: Instead of warrior. :o)
Daniel: You gave me articles to read and then you steamroll over me commenting on them.
Deanr`: To show everyone else the depth of the delusion here.
Daniel: They can click the link too.
Sayorj: But anyway - enjoy differences and pray for one another for guidance. Stay blessed - Be right back.
Daniel:
For Fish, the Bible is the ONLY source for ANY truth, apparently.
When it comes to matters of salvation, yes.
Rogg: So here is this poor guy going to play for Christmas for over 1000 people and all you did is attack him mr. barron. You have no class, no sensitivity no common sense. I feel sorry for you.
Daniel: Attack? You mean warned.
Rogg: I know you think you're the smartest guy in here, but actually , you have zero intellect. You'r lucky pete is here, or I'd bash you so bad.
Deanr`:
Many (if not all) of Darwin's disciples regard his authority as apostolic. We have heard from a former member of the "fellowship" that Darwin's long-time henchman, Al Soto, insisted Darwin's teaching authority was equal in authority to that of the Apostle Paul vii
Daniel: Rogg, I don't think I'm very smart.
Deanr`: This, is exactly how Jim Jones and David Koresh began.
Rogg: You're right about that, you have the IQ of your shoe size.
Daniel: Soto isn't in the truth.
Rogg: But in reality, you're full of you know what.
Deanr`:
Darwin insists on the right to examine his disciples' private mail -- in order to make sure they are "walking in the light."
Daniel: Noted Rogg, thank you.
Rogg: Daniel, I really dislike you.
Daniel: Deanr`, that is not true.
Deanr`: Daniel, does Darwin demand access to your email?
Daniel: No.
Daniel: I voluntarily have him review my articles before I publish them, but all the chats I have that don't make it to article, he never sees.
Deanr`:
A few years ago Darwin published an article justifying polygamy and the keeping of concubines. He points out that polygamy was a fairly common practice in Old Testament times, and he claims "the Lord never condemns the practice."
Rogg: Did your lord condemn incest? I think not. He did not condemn much.
Daniel: Incest is forbidden in the law given to Moses.
Rogg: How about smashing babies against rocks? viii But hence there is accepted incest in the bible. Oh wait, smashing babies is okay according to god. kk Carry on.
Daniel: Depends on the context.
Rogg: Yea, keep talking.
Daniel: Sounds like you're already familiar with the context.
Deanr`:
Is it true that Darwin received pastoral training under John MacArthur? No. Darwin was once a member of Grace Community Church and briefly participated as a non-paid leader in the youth ministry. Instead of becoming a pastoral intern or following any of the established tracks for leadership training within Grace Church, however, he soon dropped out of ministry there and became a severe critic of the church, and of John MacArthur in particular.
Rogg: Context is smashing babies, and killing first borns. You can spin it to make it better for ya, okay?
Daniel: Rogg, no spin required. sometimes it's okay to smash babies against rocks.
Rogg: You're an idiot. Did you know that?
Daniel: Yes.
Deanr`: What??? Good grief, I've seen enough.
Daniel:
Wisdom 1:13 says, ". . . God did not make death". Please note Romans 11:36. I did. "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things." That's it. Fish thinks this is contrary. The verb "make" is not even used in Romans and "death" is not a "thing".
Romans 11 says "all things are of from and to God" which must also include death. The Bible specifically says that God kills.
The meaning of the passage, at any rate, is that all things belong to God, which is not a statement of creative activity to begin with.
Okay, how about this one. Colossians 1:
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
This article's other points about the book of wisdom all seem to boil down to "well don't take it literally silly."
Give to the one who is good, but do not help the sinner. This goes directly against Luke 6:27-36 and Matthew 5:38-48. It does? We're not told how
Isn't it obvious. The Bible instructs us to help our neighbor, to help the poor. It doesn't say "unless your poor neighbor is a sinner."
Sirach had Christ in mind, 200 years before Christ? And he meant this proverb to be universal?
Christ has always been. He is from everlasting.
Grapey: Jesus sat down with the sinners and publicans. It rains on the just and unjust.
Grapey: .john 3 16
Barnabas: KJV John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Grapey: Daniel, what does your church teach that others don't? Or better said what do they tell the truth about.
Daniel: Lots of stuff, scroll up and see.
Grapey: =)
Daniel: Or check out our website.
Grapey: I checked it out for a sec.. I want you to tell me in short.
Daniel: Yeah I get that a lot; I wish more people would take the time to do it themselves.
Grapey: Well I did read some of it. It didn't seem abnormal to me.
Daniel: But here you go, the Bible doesn't forbid: drugs, drinking, smoking, gambling, slavery, polygyny, masturbation. That's not an exhaustive list.
Grapey: Well the Israelites were led out of bondage. And there is the Jubilee.
Daniel: Right, but slavery is not forbidden.
Grapey: So why are those the specific points to point out.
Daniel: It's a quick list of things you are likely to disagree with.
Grapey: What do you find that most ministers of theses churches are not telling the truth about.
Daniel: Well, most churches would disagree on the things I just listed.
Grapey: Well I have read. I remember what is written. Well what you listed isn't a surprise to me. One can even drink wine for a sick stomach. Moderation. As long as one doesn't worship the bottle more than the LORD. I am interested why you think all are going to hell. We know all Israel will be saved and they are as the sands of the sea. What do you think of the evil rudiments within each soul that is destroyed.
matthieu: He said that no one go to hell two hours ago.
Grapey: Evil as a tool created.
Daniel: Most go to hell.
Grapey: What do you think about Jesus saying to His Father forgive then Father for they know not what they do. ix Do you think the Father forgave them...
Daniel: He's talking about the ones who crucified him, and it doesn't mean they are forgiven. x He also prayed not to be crucified; xi that didn't come true.
Grapey: Yes but the Son does everything to please his Father. He prayed for the cup to pass. psa 22 The cup that others would be drinking later after him. .john 3 35
Barnabas: KJV John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Grapey: .eph 1 20 21
Barnabas: KJV Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Grapey: .2pet 3 9
Barnabas: KJV 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Grapey: I think he is capable of his will being done.
Grapey: .rev 22 14 15
Barnabas: KJV Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Grapey: Some enter into the gates of the city and some are without.
- Ephesians 5:
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
- See comments. ^
- 1 Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
- Acts 20:
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
- Luke 1:
37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
Darwin: Many years ago (probably 1993 or 1994), I down played the use of small cups and I think communion crackers and then retracted the statement.
Darwin: That is a lie.
- Psalm 137:
9 Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock! - Luke 23:
34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
And they divided His garments and cast lots.
Darwin: It does mean they were forgiven for that act. Jesus said, “And I know that You always hear Me, . . .” (John 11:42). Even Jesus' prayer about not being crucified was heard (heeded), for Jesus qualified His request with, “nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (Luke 22:42).
- Mark 14:
36 And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.”
Can you biblically support your statement "common sense leads to hell"? Do you use common sense?
Common sense is our own understanding, (Proverbs 3:5) and the traditions of men. (Colossians 2:8)
You didn't answer if you used it or not. You have yet again added to God's word. Neither verses talk about common sense. Traditions of men are not the same as common sense. A simple definition of common sense would prove that. You should look it up. I still would like a verse that shows common sense leads to hell.
I don't rely on common sense when making arguments about Scripture. This issue is the same as the understanding thing. That which seems logical and rational to the world is not necessarily true, especially when it contradicts Scripture. The rebuttal should not be "use common sense" but rather, "use the Bible."
I don't rely on common sense either. Relying on and using are not the same thing. Your statement is false that common sense leads to hell. It's not found in the Bible. You twist the scripture to fit your "own understanding". Of course it's not necessarily true if it contradicts scripture but common sense doesn't always do that.
Fair enough. Not all common sense leads to hell. I shouldn't have made such a blanket statement, although I said it in the context of using common sense to interpret Scripture. I'll strike out that line from the article.
You simply made the claim that common sense leads to hell. Even in the context you were talking about, scripture still doesn't say that. Proverbs says don't lean or rely on your own understanding, it doesn't say never use it. Your statement was false either way. Thanks for understanding.