Daniel P. Barron

I guess we'll know for sure at the judgment.

December 16, 2018

TheKingsPeace: Presumably according to biblical teaching there are a number of souls in Hell as we speak.

If you beleive in Hell do you have pity for the souls there? Why or why not?

EpistemicFaithCri5is:i Where is that written?

(Answer: Nowhere. Don't limit God's grace.)

Daniel: It's written in the Bible.

Luke 16:

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

EpistemicFaithCri5is: That's a parable, though. Or do you think people will actually turn into sheep and goats at the judgment,ii too?

Daniel: God doesn't lie. If He says something happened, it did.

Titus 1:

2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began

Also, Roman Catholicism leads to hell. Repent!

EpistemicFaithCri5is: Thanks for your concern, but it has about the same effect on me as extra ecclesiam nulla salusiii would have on you.

I guess we'll know for sure at the judgment, when one us turns into a sheep and the other into a goat ;)

Captainhaddock: As Epistemic Faith Crisis notes, this is a parable, not a description of something actually occurring.

Furthermore, what it describes is not "Hell", but Gehenna, a place where souls would be temporarily kept before the judgment according to some Jewish beliefs. In fact, it perfectly mirrors the description of Gehenna in 1 Enoch, where both good and evil are present but separated by a great chasm.

Perhaps even worse for standard Christian dogma is the fact that the poor man goes to the nice part of Gehenna simply for being poor, and the rich man goes to the not-so-nice part simply for being rich. There is no mention of the poor man's merit, virtue, or belief in Christ. (Though Abraham tells the rich man that his brothers simply need to follow the law in order to avoid his fate.)

Lastly, it is completely unique within the canonical Bible. No other biblical author describes a place where departed souls are held in waiting and experience bliss or torment in the meantime.

Daniel:

this is a parable, not a description of something actually occurring.

You are calling God a liar.

Furthermore, what it describes is not "Hell", but Gehenna, a place where souls would be temporarily kept before the judgment according to some Jewish beliefs.

Gehenna is hell. And it is temporary in the sense that even it is cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This place of eternal burning is mentioned elsewhere:

Hell is a literal place (e.g. Matthew 5:29-30;iv 10:28v). It is a literal place where literal people suffer the torment of a literal fire (e.g. Luke 16:19-31vi). Its location is down (Proverbs 15:24;vii Isaiah 14:9;viii Ezekiel 31:15-17;ix 2 Peter 2:4x). Its temperature is burning hot (Luke 16:24;xi Revelation 19:20xii). Its luminance is "outer darkness" (Matthew 8:12;xiii 22:13;xiv 25:30xv), also called "the blackness of darkness" (2 Peter 2:17;xvi Jude 13xvii). Its size is so massive it is never filled to capacity (Proverbs 27:20xviii), though masses of people are in it and numbers more are added continually (Matthew 7:13-14;xix Romans 1:18xx). Its smoke will ascend forever (Revelation 14:11xxi). Its fire will never be quenched, and the worm there will never die (Isaiah 66:24;xxii Mark 9:43-46, 48xxiii).

Daniel:

In fact, it perfectly mirrors the description of Gehenna in 1 Enoch

Whoops, I missed this one. The book of Enoch is not part of the Bible.

captainhaddock: None of the prooftexts you quote actually describe souls being tormented in the present. Many are not about any kind of afterlife at all but are taken grossly out of context, as any technical Bible commentary will tell you.

You are calling God a liar.

No, I'm calling you a liar.

Daniel:

as any technical Bible commentary will tell you.

I go by what God tells me; not by what false teachers like you tack on to His Word.

captainhaddock: Exactly my point. The parable in Luke is based on a description of hell that is found only in extra-biblical mythology, presumably because it was familiar to the audience.

Daniel: Ah, so now you are saying that God did not preserve His word, and that parts of the Bible can be safely discarded? I don't presume to know; I take what God says literally. I guess we'll know for sure at the judgment.

  1. Identifies as Roman Catholic
  2. He is adding to the word here. God doesn't say they transform into sheep or goats. Matthew 25:
    31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

  3. This translates to: "outside the Church there is no salvation."
  4. Matthew 5:
    29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

  5. Matthew 10:
    28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

  6. Luke 16:
    19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

    27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

  7. Proverbs 15:
    24 The way of life winds upward for the wise,
    That he may turn away from hell below.

  8. Isaiah 14:
    9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you,
    To meet you at your coming;
    It stirs up the dead for you,
    All the chief ones of the earth;
    It has raised up from their thrones
    All the kings of the nations.

  9. Ezekiel 31:
    15 “Thus says the Lord God: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.

  10. 2 Peter 2:
    4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

  11. Luke 16:
    24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

  12. Revelation 19:
    20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

  13. Matthew 8:
    12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

  14. Matthew 22:
    13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

  15. Matthew 25:
    30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

  16. 2 Peter 2:
    17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

  17. Jude:
    13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

  18. Proverbs 27:
    20 Hell and Destruction are never full;
    So the eyes of man are never satisfied.

  19. Matthew 7:
    13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

  20. Romans 1:
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

  21. Revelation 14:
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

  22. Isaiah 66:
    24 “And they shall go forth and look
    Upon the corpses of the men
    Who have transgressed against Me.
    For their worm does not die,
    And their fire is not quenched.
    They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

  23. Mark 9:
    43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

    ‘Their worm does not die
    And the fire is not quenched.’

    45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

    ‘Their worm does not die
    And the fire is not quenched.’

    47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

    ‘Their worm does not die
    And the fire is not quenched.’

3 Responses

  1. Anonymous

    Very Nice! It is magnificient that you do God's work. We are desentized by staring at the computer screen. We need to put the faith in people. We need to put the faith in God.
    Thank You!

  2. You're welcome! Do you think you are saved, and have you checked out atruechurch.info? Please let me know if there's anything you disagree with on there.

  3. [...] Bible says God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2ix) If God says that's how He created things, it must be literally how it [...]

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