Daniel P. Barron

It’s like talking to a brick wall with you.

Thursday, December 27, 2018

brandonmjc1: What is your view of Mary? What significance does she have in the Bible, in your beliefs?

Why?

Daniel: She is the mother of God, (Matthew 1:16i) a sinner, (Romans 3:23ii) and saved. (Luke 1:46-50iii)

brandonmjc1: I would personally disagree with the sinner part

Daniel: Do you deny Romans 3:23 then? It says "all have sinned."

brandonmjc1: Did Jesus sin?

Either way this entire chapter is a justification of the faith to non believers, “all” doesn’t even apply and is cherry picked.

It’s also clearly talking about how you’re saved not from the mosaic law but through faith with grace

And it clearly states he’s talking to Gentiles

Daniel:

Did Jesus sin?

No. Jesus is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. (Numbers 23:19iv)

Either way this entire chapter is a justification of the faith to non believers, “all” doesn’t even apply and is cherry picked.

The law makes the whole world guilty. (Romans 3:19v) No flesh is justified. (Romans 3:20vi)

And it clearly states he’s talking to Gentiles

God is God of both jews and gentiles. (Romans 3:29vii)

What is your justification that Mary is: not of the world, not in the flesh, and not a jew or gentile? That is to ask, what is your scriptural backing that Mary did not need Christ to die for her in order for her to be saved?

brandonmjc1: Again you're quoting a letter justifying the faith to Gentiles. "All" does not mean "all" as we both agree Christ did not sin, the point is moot. If you want to see my view on why the Immaculate Conception and sinlessness is supported, just return to the post I made I've said it multiple times.

It's backed by the greek word "kecharitomene".viii

Also Christ was most obviously took the form of a human, quoting the OT still doesn't make your point as God had not became man.

if you're also denying the human nature of Christ this convo is done

Daniel:

just return to the post I made I've said it multiple times.

I have not seen it.

Christ was most obviously took the form of a human

Christ does not change. (Hebrews 13:8ix)

"All" does not mean "all"

It means, the world, the flesh, and all jews and gentiles. Mary was of the world, she was in the flesh, and she was a jew or gentile. She would have gone to hell if God didn't cause her to believe.

It's backed by the greek word "kecharitomene".

Based on some very quick searching, I'm to understand the argument is that Mary had been graced. This is in line with Romans 9:23,x but it does not mean she was not in need of salvation. The elect need Christ. (Matthew 24:22xi)

brandonmjc1: So at this point you’re denying the human nature of Christ.

Daniel: God is a man, but He is not of this world. (John 18:36xii)

brandonmjc1: He is completely human, and completely divine. He is a perfect realization of man before Adam’s fall.

Daniel: Unlike Mary, who was born in sin, and who required salvation in order to inherit the kingdom of God.

brandonmjc1: And that’s where the Word kecharitomene comes into play

“chaire kecharitomene” or “Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη”

kecharitomene indicates a person or thing (in this case Mary) put into the state indicated by the root (in this case “charis” or “grace”) a completed present state as a result of past action (the “ke”) by another (“mene”) in this case, God.

So you have Hail! (Which appears 5 times total, once to Mary four to Christ).xiii Then, you have a word meaning in the past you were made full of grace completely (how’s that possible if she hadn’t been baptized, that has original sin, how are you full of grace in a state of sin? She had anywhere from 12-16 years depending on belief to commit a sin aswell) are now full of grace, and you were made so by God.

Which is what drives the catholic doctrine along with tradition that Mary never sinned, and was born without original sin.

Daniel:

how are you full of grace in a state of sin?

God creates the elect for the purpose of showing His mercy. We have sinned, but through His grace we get to inherit the riches of His glory. (Romans 9:23xiv)

To have mercy is to forgive. To be forgiven is to have sinned.

brandonmjc1: Nowhere does it insinuate forgiveness of sin, likewise it addresses her as “kecharitomene” is an identity.

Inheriting the kingdom has nothing to do with an angel greeting you in such a unique way

Jesus hadn’t even been conceived

And the verse you’re pulling is even out of context and not a complete sentence

It’s literally talking about the descendants of Israel, all those who descended from Abraham are not his descendants, and the will of God, he pursuit of righteousness by Gentiles, the lost children, etc

AND the verse doesn’t even mention grace

Daniel:

Nowhere does it insinuate forgiveness of sin

Forgiveness insinuates sin.

And the verse you’re pulling is even out of context

I welcome you to read the context. It's about God creating people for either destruction or glory, according to His will and not that of the people He creates.

AND the verse doesn’t even mention grace

By grace we are saved. (Ephesians 2:8-9xv)

how’s that possible if she hadn’t been baptized

Christ came to John to be baptized, (Matthew 3:14xvi) despite being "full of grace." (John 1:14xvii) John who was "filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15xviii)

brandonmjc1:

forgiveness insinuates sin

Exactly, there’s no forgiveness therefore no sin

So now you’re avoiding the fact the verse didn’t include grace, to go to Ephesians

You’re only strengthening my cause with staying Christ’s Human perfectness, and no need for baptism

In relation to Mary

This isn’t even about Christ, it’s about Mary.

Mary was hailed, addressed in a very unique and special way, and given no indication of forgiveness

Daniel: If John was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was born, why then does he need baptism?

And if Mary is without sin, how is she not God?

You say that Christ is the exception to "all have sinned." Your point is that not all have sinned, and your aim is to prove that Mary has not sinned. In this you have made Mary equal with Christ who is God.

The Bible says all have sinned; you say that not all have sinned. By these fruit (Matthew 12:33-37xix) I know that you are not in the truth. (Matthew 7:20xx)

brandonmjc1: Adam was conceived without sin, he was not God.

All, does not mean all, as all have not sinned as Christ has not sinned

Being filled with the spirit does not equate to a state of perpetual grace

You again cite the same verse taken out of context meant to justify the faith to Gentiles...

You then deny the human nature of Jesus which is heretical

Daniel:

Adam was conceived without sin, he was not God.

It was from Adam that all have sinned. (Romans 5:12xxi)

brandonmjc1: Adam was conceived without sin

Daniel: He wasn't conceived at all. God created him out of the earth. (Genesis 2:7xxii)

brandonmjc1: It’s like talking to a brick wall with you

You can’t even affirm the two natures of Christxxiii

Daniel: Try reading some of the links I've given you. Like this one.


  1. 16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.


  2. 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


  3. 46 And Mary said:

    “My soul magnifies the Lord,
    47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
    48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
    For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
    49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
    And holy is His name.
    50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
    From generation to generation.

    Emphasis added.


  4. 19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
    Has He said, and will He not do?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


  5. 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


  6. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


  7. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,

  8. Darwin: That same root Greek word is used for believers in Ephesians 1:6 "He has made . . . accepted" (NKJV, ἐχαρίτωσεν [echaritosen]).

  9. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


  10. 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,


  11. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.


  12. 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

  13. Darwin: For Christ, once by Judas (Matthew 26:49), the others to mock Christ, Matthew 27:29; Mark 15:18; John 19:3. Moreover, it's not "total" but only for that particular spelling (Χαῖρε [chaire], present imperative, 2nd person). It's found in the NT about 74 times total, and in the present imperative, 2nd person plural, about 9 times typically translated "Rejoice" (Matthew 5:12; 28:9; Luke 10:20; 2 Corinthians 13:11; Philippians 2:18; 3:1; 4:4; 1 Thessalonians 5:16; 1 Peter 4:13).

  14. 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,


  15. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


  16. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”


  17. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


  18. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.


  19. 33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


  20. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


  21. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—


  22. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

  23. Darwin: Where does the Bible teach this concept? Nowhere. This theology is related, if not based in, their rejection of God being a Man of immortal flesh and blood ("God which He purchased with His own blood" Act 20:28). They reject that the "Divine" nature is human.

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