This is a sort of continuation of a previous article. The following took place on another day, and has been broken up into many articles. The first in the series starts off with the introduction of a new character, and some discussion of slavery and hate in the Bible.
thunor: What's up? I'm watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwMtryNZKKY
He says slavery is good.
Daniel: Hello. Yes, the Bible never forbids slavery. that's true.
thunor: Enslaving prisoners of war is one of the best things you can do in wartime. Some of Britain's best built things are from foreign slaves in war. Although the African slave trade was unbiblical. Because they stole people, and that's punishable by death in the bible. i And treated them abominably.
Thunor goes on to chat with GoddessUbasti for some time about science fiction nonsense. I pop back in to ask if he saw our website.
Daniel: Thunor, did you check out http://atruechurch.info/ ? Let me know what you think.
thunor: I agree with what I've read so far Daniel, but to be honest I only think martyrs are saved, and people who bleed and sweat night and day for God. I highly doubt I'll be saved unless I die for Christ some way.
Daniel: You aren't saved if you doubt you are saved. Stop doubting. And indeed, all that you do should be for God. ii
GoddessUbasti: Oh... I didn't remember your being in here. Thunor, a very important thing to do with the Bible is make sure that anything you read or anyone tells you fits within the context of the rest of the Bible. Anything anyone tells you is from the Bible or they tell you something means something in particular. Make sure you verify it yourself, and from reputable and trustworthy sources. iii Not only martyrs are saved. Anyone drawn by the Holy Spirit, who acknowledges their sin before God, repents and turns away from it, will be saved.
thunor: What does the bible mean by "be angry and sin not"? iv
GoddessUbasti: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/be-angry-do-not-sin-2/ v
thunor: Thank you.
GoddessUbasti: You're welcome.
Skipping a brief interlude of video sharing..
thunor: Don't you find it funny how people don't read the small print of Christianity?
GoddessUbasti: What's the "small print?"
thunor: Like on first reading of the two commandments: "love god" and "love your neighbor as yourself." vi I always forgot the definition of a neighbor. A neighbor is someone who helps you when you're in serious need.
Daniel: Where does the Bible say that?
thunor: The Parable of the Good Samaritan. vii
GoddessUbasti: Ultimately, thunor, as one is becoming more like Christ, a "neighbor" turns into being anyone that you come into contact with.
Daniel: It says the neighbor is the one who did the help because he offered help? I thought it was the one in need who is the neighbor, and the one who helped him is the one living out the command to love his neighbor. viii
thunor: Maybe you're right. I always saw myself as the guy getting beat up.
Daniel: They are both neighbors of each other.
GoddessUbasti: Thunor, you've been bullied a lot?
thunor: Well I got beaten half to death once just like that story. Then a christian found me on the street.
Daniel: And indeed, if you are the one dying, you would want to be helped. because "no man hates his own flesh." (Ephesians 5:29 ix)
ljrbot: Ephesians 5:29 -- For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church:
Daniel: So then, if you love your neighbor as yourself, you would help him as if it was your own body in trouble.
GoddessUbasti: Thunor, wow, I'm very sorry that happened to you. :( True, Daniel.
thunor: I don't think "love your neighbor as yourself" means "love everyone." Otherwise predators can exploit you real easily.
Daniel: Well you should love everyone for other reasons. (Matthew 5:44 x)
ljrbot: Matthew 5:44 -- But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:
GoddessUbasti: Love doesn't mean allowing yourself to be exploited.
Daniel: Sure, you should be "wise as a serpent." (Matthew 10:16 xi)
GoddessUbasti: The world is "tit for tat," meaning if someone hates me, I hate them back. If someone hurts me, I hurt them back. So loving your "enemy" means that if you have someone who hates you, you don't hate them back. It's definitely easy to want to treat someone as they treat you. But Christians are called to not do that.
thunor: Bible teaches us to love other Christians.
Daniel: Enemies are the majority of the world that does not believe the Bible, xii and you love them by warning them that they are going to hell. xiii
thunor: Not necessarily everyone. I would not say every unbeliever is my enemy. People who attack me unprovoked are my enemy.
GoddessUbasti: No, we are called to love everyone, even those who hurt us. Daniel, that's not the only way to love them, but telling them the Gospel is certainly one way. :) Thunor, so much of the Bible asks us to act in a way that is not the norm with how humans react to each other. Oh, also an unbeliever isn't my "enemy," Daniel.
Daniel: They should be. xiv But you are likewise an unbeliever.
thunor: I don't think we are commanded to hate people who hate God. I mean, I don't think we are commanded to love people who hate God.
Daniel: We are commanded to hate our mother and father and even our own lives; xv of course you should hate those who hate God.
GoddessUbasti: What?
^Peter^: Feel sorry for rather than hate?
GoddessUbasti: We are NOT to hate anyone.
Daniel: Psalm 139:
21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?thunor: Yes, that includes people like pedophiles and murderers. You are supposed to hate them.
GoddessUbasti: Thunor: please, please take Daniel with a grain of salt. It's been shown he believes in some things that don't align with the Bible.
Daniel: Psalm 119:
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.GoddessUbasti: No, we are not to hate anyone. As Christians.
thunor: GoddessUbasti, that is nonsense.
GoddessUbasti: We can hate sin. But NOT people.
thunor: That is from Hindu teachings, GoddessUbasti.
Daniel: And yet the scripture clearly says to hate the people.
thunor: We are supposed to hate people who hate God.
Daniel: It's funny how out of one side of your mouth you accuse me of saying things that don't align with the Bible and from the other side of your mouth do exactly what you accuse!
^Peter^: Hmmm, but God said Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Daniel: Yes, so you must both love and hate everyone.
^Peter^: Haha. Hate what they do yes.
Daniel: And them.
^Peter^: Hate them, no.
thunor: :/ Too much hippy influence in modern Christianity.
^Peter^: David expressed his own idea, not what God commanded.
Daniel: http://atruechurch.info/godhateseveryone.html
GoddessUbasti: https://www.openbible.info/topics/hating_others Daniel, wow. No.
^Peter^: Not really impressed with the philosophy of the atruechurch, and I was going to mention that to you.
GoddessUbasti: I'm sorry that you don't see your similarities to Westboro Baptist Church folks. xvi Genuine Christians do not hate those God created (all humans).
thunor: GoddessUbasti, so you love pedophiles?
^Peter^: God is my reference, not Westbro or atruechurch.
GoddessUbasti: Thunor, I seek to love ALL people. We are all sinners who offend God. God does not look at a pedophile and think his sin is worse than mine.
Daniel: GoddessUbasti, oh we have plenty of similarities, but they are Calvinists and that leads to hell.
^Peter^: Rubbish.
thunor: I would categorize a pedo as the one who needs a millstone tied around his neck.
GoddessUbasti: Thunor, the sin in this world is a foul, terrible thing, but we all sin, and any sin offends Holy God.
^Peter^: God through Jesus sacrifice cleanses pedo, and even you and me of our sins.
GoddessUbasti: ^Peter^, hi, hope you didn't think my Westboro comment was directed to you? Humans rate sin, thunor, God does not.
^Peter^: GoddessUbasti, no it was just that I queried the authenticity of the source if it conflicted with Gods law.
GoddessUbasti: Daniel, your ideas are cult-like. :( ^Peter^, I'm not following, sorry?
^Peter^: Basically the question should be, "what would Jesus do?", and he made friends with the worst sinners.
GoddessUbasti: Yes, indeed.
^Peter^: GoddessUbasti, yes my Westboro initial response was wrong, I did not read and assumed it was a comment from Daniel rather than from you. ):
thunor: I don't think Westboro are that bad.
Daniel: GoddessUbasti,yes we are a cult.xvii http://atruechurch.info/marksofacult.html
GoddessUbasti: Oh, I see, okay. Glad we figured it out. I was equating his church with WBC.
Daniel: Acts 28:
22 But we desire to hear from you what you think; for concerning this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere.”
ljrbot: Acts 28:22 -- But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that it is every where contradicted.
GoddessUbasti: Thunor, please seek to learn who Jesus is, that's the best advice I can give you...seek Jesus.
Daniel: And regarding WBC: http://atruechurch.info/godhatesphelps.html
GoddessUbasti: Daniel, funny your church felt a need to show how it's not like WBC?
Daniel: Well we are like them in most of the ways people hate WBC. But they are not in the truth because they believe in the false doctrine of limited atonement.
thunor: What sins aren't forgiven?
GoddessUbasti: They're not exhibiting signs of any interest in becoming like Jesus with their hatred, which is NOT how Jesus came across. And you do the same. Thunor, only one, "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" which simply means, when the Holy Spirit calls you to salvation and you reject it. That's it, the only unforgivable sin is rejecting Jesus dying on the cross for you. xviii
thunor: I feel like I might have done it.
Daniel: That is not what blaspheming the Holy Spirit means.
^Peter^: Daniel, I would be careful to see why the one and only true church has taken so much trouble to show that no one else in ministry is valid, and for instance the section on Billy Graham is appalled by Billies 'friendship' with people we may or may not agree with ... but I mentioned earlier that this attitude is contrary to Gods commandments. xix
GoddessUbasti: ^Peter^, good points.
Daniel: Blaspheming the holy spirit is described in the Bible as attributing to demons what is of it. ^Peter^, we do not claim to be the only true church.
thunor: So if I say someone is possessed by a demon when it is actually the holy spirit, that is blasphemy against the holy spirit?
GoddessUbasti: https://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-Holy-Spirit.html Daniel, you misinterpret the Bible left and right. By the way, thunor, gotquestions.org is a very good resource for essentially any question you could think of related to Christianity and the Bible.
Daniel: Thunor, maybe. the example in the Bible was when Christ cast out demons and healed people, and they said to Him it was by the power of Beelzebub. xx
GoddessUbasti: Daniel, go read the link. I read a lot of your website. So be fair. :)
Daniel: Ugh, but your link is to such an ugly web page. :< xxi
GoddessUbasti: Ugly in appearance or because you've deemed it erroneous?
Daniel: Appearance.
GoddessUbasti: Your browser can handle it...go on then. :) As can your brain. You'll live.
Daniel: Right off the bat the article confirms exactly what I have said. In the first paragraph.
GoddessUbasti: Keep reading. Keep reading!
thunor: GoddessUbasti, that article makes no sense, what relevance does it have that Jesus is not around anymore (and isn't he? he resurrected...) to blasphemy of the holy spirit?
Daniel:
The Pharisees were in a unique moment in history: they had the Law and the Prophets, they had the Holy Spirit stirring their hearts
Where does it say that!?
thunor: The holy spirit still works in people.
Daniel: The pharisees did not have the Holy Spirit. Their hearts were filled with nothing but evil.
GoddessUbasti: Okay, maybe this one is better written, thunor: https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/why-blasphemy-against-holy-spirit-unpardonable-sin. Daniel, ALL people are given the opportunity for salvation, and one cannot be saved without first being drawn by the Holy Spirit.
Daniel: The most important thing to know about the "unpardonable sin" is that you should always hope you haven't committed it. Where does the Bible say all have this opportunity? It says that the wicked are created for destruction. (Romans 9:22 xxii)
ljrbot: Romans 9:22 -- What if God, willing to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction,
Daniel: Where then is their opportunity?
^Peter^: Before death.
To be continued...
- Exodus 21:
16 “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.
- And also, you do have to die for Christ. Colossians 3:
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
- She's talking about me, and how I shouldn't be trusted. No such warning was issued when he earlier described how a Muslim convinced him that the Catholic church is in the truth, and that Christ created a computer simulation in which we currently live. ^
- Psalm 4:
4 Be angry, and do not sin.
Meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still. SelahEphesians 4:
26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath,
- From the article:
Since Jesus’ wrath was directed at hypocrites, we must also be angry with ourselves and with others when it is clear that our words do not match our deeds (Matt. 15:8; 23).
Not just over hypocrites, but against "every false way." Psalm 119:
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.See also: God Hates Everyone. ^
- Luke 10:
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
- Luke 10:
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
- Actually, thunor was right. Luke 10:
36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
Although the last line indicates the neighbor is also the fallen one. To "go and do likewise" is to "show mercy"; not to go get beat up. ^
- Ephesians 5:
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
- Matthew 5:
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
- Matthew 10:
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
- Matthew 5:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
- Colossians 1:
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 5:
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all.
- James 4:
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
- Luke 14:
26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
Darwin: Similarities with Westboro? Actually, not much more than election and God hating the wicked. They don't believe John 3:16. Also, they have an entirely different God (Protestant type) than the God of the Bible. They certainly don't believe "He is Holy Gods" (Joshua 24:19, "He Is Holy Gods.")
- That is to say, we fit the definition proposed by false churches as being a cult. We do not actually consider our church to be a cult. ^
Darwin: The way they describe blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (typical description given) is forgivable. Nicodemus' statement to Christ in John 3 is helpful. He says, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” The Pharisees in the context of undeniable proof called the work of God Satanic.
- See the link. Darwin refutes this claim. ^
- Matthew 12:
22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
- My attempt at humor. People often say that our website is ugly. ^
- Romans 9:
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
[...] log is a continuation of a previous article. It has been modified for spelling and formatting, and it has been reviewed by Darwin Fish. thunor: [...]