Dobermann: You should be aware that porneria in Rom 1 is also applied to polygamy in the Septuagint. @Daniel
Daniel: polygyny is not wrong i
Kirk, Supreme Meth!: Oh yeah Daniel is the cult guy ii
Kirk, Supreme Meth!: Hi dude
Daniel: yes hello
Dobermann: Sorry, but the OT disagrees with you.
Dobermann: Check [Jeremiah 3:1-2 Lxx]
Erasmus: Jeremiah 3:1-2 iii (LXX)1. ἐὰν ἐξαποστείλῃ ἀνὴρ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀπέλθῃ ἀπ' αὐτοῦ καὶ γένηται ἀνδρὶ ἑτέρῳ μὴ ἀνακάμπτουσα ἀνακάμψει πρὸς αὐτὸν ἔτι οὐ μιαινομένη μιανθήσεται ἡ γυνὴ ἐκείνη καὶ σὺ ἐξεπόρνευσας ἐν ποιμέσιν πολλοῖς καὶ ἀνέκαμπτες πρός με λέγει κύριος 2. ἆρον εἰς εὐθεῖαν τοὺς ὀφθαλμούς σου καὶ ἰδέ ποῦ οὐχὶ ἐξεφύρθης ἐπὶ ταῖς ὁδοῖς ἐκάθισας αὐτοῖς ὡσεὶ κορώνη ἐρημουμένη καὶ ἐμίανας τὴν γῆν ἐν ταῖς πορνείαις σου καὶ ἐν ταῖς κακίαις σου
Dobermann: Do you see porneria πορνείαις in there? iv
Daniel: @Dobermann actually it agrees. It commands David to not "multiply wives for himself" [Deuteronomy 17:17] and that he didn't go against this command [1 Kings 15:5] despite having at least 20 wives v
Erasmus: Deuteronomy 17:17 (NKJV)17. Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.
Erasmus: 1 Kings 15:5 (NKJV)
5. because David did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
Dobermann: @Daniel false
Mtgamerguy: Well, where's the proof?
Daniel: yeah, what is false about the passages I showed you?
Daniel: it says David didn't turn away from any of God's commandments, which would include the command to not multiply wives for himself, and yet we know David had multiple wives..
Dobermann: No, wrong. If you survey 1 kings even you'll find the author finds fault with Solomon consistently. To rip one verse out of context and suggest It means Solomon only committed one sin is to demonstrate the ridiculousness of your cult.
Daniel: solomon is in hell. vi of course there was fault to be found with him
Daniel: solomon did in fact multiply wives for himself vii
Daniel: David, however, did not
Dobermann: I meant David, not Solomon.
Daniel: show me what fault was found with David, besides the matter of Uriah the Hittite viii
Dobermann: David was directly rebuked by Nathan on behalf of God.
Daniel: for doing what?
Dobermann: God sent Nathan to rebuke him.
Dobermann: Inspect 2 Sam 12 ix
Daniel: 2 sam 12 is about uriah the hittite.. I asked for an example other than that one
Dobermann: You can find several mentions in 2 Sam and 1 chron but the clearest would be in 2 Sam 24 when David repent for him sin.
Dobermann: [2 Samuel 24:17]
Erasmus: 2 Samuel 24:17 (KJV)17. And David spake unto the LORD when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly: but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house.
Daniel: what was the sin in that case?
Dobermann: David wasn't in sinless perfection other than uriah so we can't understand his actions as an endorsement of the sin of porneria
Mtgamerguy: No normal human is sinless
Dobermann: This was specifically a contradictory census to gain wealth
Dobermann: But that is beside the point.
Daniel: where does it say it was a contradictory census?
Dobermann: If we understand David to have at least two sins we cannot understand your passage to say his only sin was with uriah therefore your point about David's marriage fails. x
Dobermann: Inspect the context of the passage I provided @Daniel
Daniel: it doesn't look to me that David asked for such a thing as you say
Daniel: [2 samuel 24:1-4]
Erasmus: 2 Samuel 24:1-4 (NKJV)1. Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2. So the king said to Joab the commander of the army who was with him, “Now go throughout all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and count the people, that I may know the number of the people.” 3. And Joab said to the king, “Now may the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?” 4. Nevertheless the king’s word prevailed against Joab and against the captains of the army. Therefore Joab and the captains of the army went out from the presence of the king to count the people of Israel.
Dobermann: I was about to cite verse 1. Notice it specifically says God's anger was kindled against him? And he later repents?
Daniel: well yes, on that point I do not object. And I ask you then, where does God make the commandment to not take a census?
Kirk, Supreme Meth!: How u feel about polygyny Evan
Dobermann: That's not it. Its not about taking a census or not it's the way David took the census. But this is beside the point.
Red, Supreme Gay!: It's wrong, I guess, if I'm not wrong
Daniel: you are wrong. Polygyny is not wrong.
Dobermann: You cited a verse to suggest David's only sin was with uriah to support polygamy. The bible contradicts this and identifies a second sin. Therefore your point fails and polygamy is condemned by the Bible.
Daniel: no Doberman, the passage I showed you says David didn't go against the commandments of God except the one.
Dobermann: False.
Dobermann: David himself repents. And the Bible identifies it as sin.
Daniel: he repents, but that doesn't mean he went against a commandment of God
Dobermann: You're trying to embroil David in your heresy and he disagrees.
Daniel: so I ask again, in a different way, what commandment of God did David go against in 2 sam 24?
Red, Supreme Gay!: I've heard some lore that David broke all 10 commandments, though I'm not sure if that's the case.
Daniel: David commited murder and adultery according to Scripture
Kirk, Supreme Meth!: @Dobermann if you don’t win this debate I’m going shopping for a second wife
Dobermann: Lol
Dobermann: Yep and this in specific could be considered a breaking of the commandment against stealing. xi
Dobermann: One of the things David did in his census is he included the priests.
Daniel: stealing is a separate commandment from adultery, but that's a moot point as the adultery/murder is both the matter of Uriah the Hittite, the one exception to him obeying the commandments of God all the days of his life
Dobermann: He's stealing the levites from God and including them in his military.
Daniel: ah
Dobermann: Ok but that's not the point.
Dobermann: You made the point that David only committed one sin.
Daniel: does Scripture call it theft?
Dobermann: This is wrong and is a rejection of the Bible.
Dobermann: Scripture identifies it as sin.
Daniel: I simply believe 1 kings 15:5
Dobermann: False.
Dobermann: You misconstrue this verse out of its context to support your cult.
Daniel: it says the only time he went against the commandments of God was in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. So I ask again, what commandment of God did he go against in numbering the people?
Daniel: what is the context then?
Dobermann: And I say again the commandment against stealing.
Daniel: where does Scripture say David committed theft?
Dobermann: Scripture doesn't always explicitly link the sin of the person who committed the sin to a specific commandment.
Red, Supreme Gay!: He technically committed covetousness as well.
Dobermann: If we go that way were in a condition where we have to disagree with the Bible multiple times.
Daniel: well indeed Scripture says David sinned in this matter of numbering the people, but what commandment was broken?
Dobermann: As I've said for the third time now he broke the commandment against theft.
Dobermann: Specifically theft against God.
Daniel: you are adding to the Word. xii It says no such thing.
Dobermann: David stole the levites from God and numbered him in his army.
Dobermann: That's garbage.
Dobermann: Yes the Bible doesn t identify specifically what commandment, but it doesn t identify which commandments Sampson broke also.
Dobermann: You're just avoiding the clear message of scripture to justify the perversions of your cult.
Daniel: the point is, 1 kings 15:5 says David didn't go against any commandments (except in one case) so then 2 sam 24 is not an example of David going against a commandment
Dobermann: Oh ok, so i guess Gods anger was kindled without reason?
Daniel: His anger was kindled before the census
Dobermann: In order for your cult to be correct God has to be unjust
Daniel: He was angry with the people of Israel, not David
Daniel: He used David to do a bad thing, so that He could punish Israel
Dobermann: Then why did David repent in verse 10?
Dobermann: Was David lying to God?
Dobermann: [2 Samuel 24:10]
Erasmus: 2 Samuel 24:10 (KJV)10. And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
Daniel: because apparently it was a bad thing that he did, but I don't know what commandment he broke
Dobermann: Yep, it dosentl require us to identify specifically the commandment broken. If scripture is true them David broke a second commandment.
Daniel: it doesn't say such a thing
Dobermann: The alternative is God is unjust
Daniel: I see no injustice. God wanted to punish Israel
Daniel: He does what He wants. xiii
Dobermann: Why did David tell God he sinned? @Daniel
Daniel: i don't know
Daniel: if you think you sinned, then you did
Daniel: even if you're wrong
Daniel: for example, it's wrong for you to have multiple wives because you think it's wrong, even though it isn't wrong
Dobermann: Ok, so he either broke a commandment and rightly identified himself as sinning or he lied to God.
Dobermann:for example, it's wrong for you to have multiple wives because you think it's wrong, even though it isn't wrong
Where is this commanded?
Daniel: it's not a lie. If your conscience convicts you of something, then it is sin even if it isn't xiv
Dobermann: False, wrong. The heart isndeceitful above all things and desperately wicked. xv
Daniel: [Matthew 7:1-2]
Erasmus: Matthew 7:1-2 (NKJV)1. “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
Dobermann: How does the sermon on the mount support your heresy in any possible way?
Daniel: if you judge that something is wrong, and you do that thing, then it will be used against you in judgment
Dobermann: So that's a commandment?
Dobermann: Is God commanding us to be guided by our conscience?
Daniel: He's telling us a fact.
Dobermann: Command or not?
Daniel: verse 1 is a command. Verse 2 is a matter of fact
Dobermann: Ridiculous.
- See "Polygamy" ^
- See "Marks of a Cult" ^
- Jeremiah 3:
“They say, ‘If a man divorces his wife,
And she goes from him
And becomes another man’s,
May he return to her again?’
Would not that land be greatly polluted?
But you have played the harlot with many lovers;
Yet return to Me,” says the Lord.2 “Lift up your eyes to the desolate heights and see:
Where have you not lain with men?
By the road you have sat for them
Like an Arabian in the wilderness;
And you have polluted the land
With your harlotries and your wickedness.
Darwin: What a perversion. Jeremiah 3 is talking about a woman (not a man) having more than one man.
- See "David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life." ^
- See "Solomon Is In Hell" ^
- 1 Kings 11:
3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart.
- 2 Samuel 11:
2 Then it happened one evening that David arose from his bed and walked on the roof of the king’s house. And from the roof he saw a woman bathing, and the woman was very beautiful to behold. 3 So David sent and inquired about the woman. And someone said, “Is this not Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” 4 Then David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her, for she was cleansed from her impurity; and she returned to her house. 5 And the woman conceived; so she sent and told David, and said, “I am with child.”
6 Then David sent to Joab, saying, “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent Uriah to David. 7 When Uriah had come to him, David asked how Joab was doing, and how the people were doing, and how the war prospered. 8 And David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah departed from the king’s house, and a gift of food from the king followed him. 9 But Uriah slept at the door of the king’s house with all the servants of his lord, and did not go down to his house. 10 So when they told David, saying, “Uriah did not go down to his house,” David said to Uriah, “Did you not come from a journey? Why did you not go down to your house?”
11 And Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are dwelling in tents, and my lord Joab and the servants of my lord are encamped in the open fields. Shall I then go to my house to eat and drink, and to lie with my wife? As you live, and as your soul lives, I will not do this thing.”
12 Then David said to Uriah, “Wait here today also, and tomorrow I will let you depart.” So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 Now when David called him, he ate and drank before him; and he made him drunk. And at evening he went out to lie on his bed with the servants of his lord, but he did not go down to his house.
14 In the morning it happened that David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, “Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die.” 16 So it was, while Joab besieged the city, that he assigned Uriah to a place where he knew there were valiant men. 17 Then the men of the city came out and fought with Joab. And some of the people of the servants of David fell; and Uriah the Hittite died also.
- 2 Samuel 12:
1 Then the Lord sent Nathan to David. And he came to him, and said to him: “There were two men in one city, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had exceedingly many flocks and herds. 3 But the poor man had nothing, except one little ewe lamb which he had bought and nourished; and it grew up together with him and with his children. It ate of his own food and drank from his own cup and lay in his bosom; and it was like a daughter to him. 4 And a traveler came to the rich man, who refused to take from his own flock and from his own herd to prepare one for the wayfaring man who had come to him; but he took the poor man’s lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”
5 So David’s anger was greatly aroused against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the Lord lives, the man who has done this shall surely die! 6 And he shall restore fourfold for the lamb, because he did this thing and because he had no pity.”
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ ”
13 So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”
Darwin: They accused you of claiming David never sinned (except for the Uriah incedent), which is not the argument.
- Exodus 20:
15 “You shall not steal.
Leviticus 19:
11 ‘You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.
Deuteronomy 5:
19 ‘You shall not steal.
- Proverbs 30:
6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
- Romans 9:
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Darwin: On the conscience, "Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith" (1 Timothy 1:5)
"Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves . . . for whatever is not from faith is sin." (Romans 14:22-23)
- Jeremiah 17:
9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?