ThatHoboRavioli: As I got into scholarship, the more the prophetic stuff started to make more sense considering the time period, and make less sense if applied to the modern age
ThatHoboRavioli: My favorite example is the statue from Daniel, i because apologetics skirt around the expiration date by merging two parts of the statue into one, leaving an empty space
James: most of the prophecies are supposed to come true within decades of being made
James: not 1000s of years
ThatHoboRavioli: Head of Gold - Neo-Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II)
Chest of Silver - Media (???, Darius the Mede is harder to find than Mackintosh Muggleton)
Thighs of Bronze - Persia (Koresh/Cyrus the Great)
Legs of Iron - Macedonia (Alexander)
Feet of Clay - Divided kingdoms of the empire, especially Antigonus (Antiochus IV Epiphanes)
ThatHoboRavioli: Apologist logic: merge Media and Persia into "Medo-Persia" even though that wasn't a thing, empty spot of the iron legs becomes Rome, feet of clay are the EU...somehow?
ThatHoboRavioli: Apologetics vs. critical scholarship is like a Benny Hill skit
ThatHoboRavioli: so...is my Daniel commentary a joke?
Daniel: I don't know enough about it
Daniel: i'll put it in my notes to ask about at Bible study
Some time passes..
Daniel: we talked about the statue in daniel
ThatHoboRavioli: That was fun
Daniel: the clay/iron feet hasn’t happened yet
ThatHoboRavioli: It did though
ThatHoboRavioli: After Alexander died
Daniel: and it has something to do with rome
ThatHoboRavioli: ....
Daniel: no, i refers to the end times
ThatHoboRavioli: It doesn;t
ThatHoboRavioli: I explained it
Daniel: we know from Scripture it hasn’t happened
ThatHoboRavioli: "My favorite example is the statue from Daniel, because apologetics skirt around the expiration date by merging two parts of the statue into one, leaving an empty space
Head of Gold - Neo-Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II)
Chest of Silver - Media (???, Darius the Mede is harder to find than Mackintosh Muggleton)
Thighs of Bronze - Persia (Koresh/Cyrus the Great)
Legs of Iron - Macedonia (Alexander)
Feet of Clay - Divided kingdoms of the empire, especially Antigonus (Antiochus IV Epiphanes)
Apologist logic: merge Media and Persia into 'Medo-Persia' even though that wasn't a thing, empty spot of the iron legs becomes Rome, feet of clay are the EU...somehow?"
Daniel: also, the medes and persians did rule at same time
Daniel: yes i read that
Daniel: Daniel 8:
20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia.
ThatHoboRavioli: But the Persians ate up the kingdom and ruled the whole thing, the Medes being worse than sidekicks
Daniel: Daniel 5:
28 PERES: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.”
Daniel: Ester 10:
2 Now all the acts of his power and his might, and the account of the greatness of Mordecai, to which the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?
ThatHoboRavioli: The Medes and the Persians DID work together in conquering Babylon, but the Persians kinda gave them the short end of the stick when establishing the Achaemenid Empire
ThatHoboRavioli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire
ThatHoboRavioli: There was a Median empire, but it was short lived and kinda crap
Daniel: Scripture please, not wikiThatHoboRavioli: The Persian empire ruled the entire known world, and stretched all the way to India, which no one from Egypt or Greece even knew existed
ThatHoboRavioli: Which is why Alexander of Macedonia's takeover was so impressive
ThatHoboRavioli: (please watch Oliver Stone's Alexander, it's an awful movie but the scene where Alexander enters Babylon is bloody amazing)
Daniel: So.. no Scripture then?
ThatHoboRavioli: Remember Cyrus the Great, the King of Persia?
ThatHoboRavioli: He revolted against the Medes at some point
Daniel: anyway, since the feet are iron with clay, it means rome will have a part in the final empire
ThatHoboRavioli: Astyages was the king of Media when Cyrus was king of Persia
ThatHoboRavioli: ...The legs of iron are Macedonia and the feet of clay are because after Alexander's death his friends went nuts and fought over control of the now divided empire. Antigonus became king of Syria, and his satan spawn Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the reason for the prophecy because he was a jerk who bossed the Jews around and is the reason Hanukkah is a thing
ThatHoboRavioli: Antiochus IV was like "the Jews must be Hellenized"
ThatHoboRavioli: And Judah Maccabee was like "okay how about no?" and revolted
Daniel: and to your point that a prophecy has to be resolved in decades not millennia, see 2 Peter 3:
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Daniel: the iron legs are rome
ThatHoboRavioli: "one day is as a thousand years" So Creation took 6000 years, not 6 days
Daniel: no
ThatHoboRavioli: So the earth is 12,000 years old according to YEC
ThatHoboRavioli: Adam and Eve lived at the end of the Ice Age
Daniel: no they didn’t
ThatHoboRavioli: I'm just applying your logic to that
Daniel: that is not what i suggested
ThatHoboRavioli: Plus I'm the paleontology nerd (we have mammoth mummies from 12,000 years ago)
Daniel: where does Scripture say what you claim, that prophecy must be resolved sooner rather than later
ThatHoboRavioli: I haven't read Daniel yet, I'm just going by the scholarly stuff I've read
Daniel: aha
Daniel: well the question made for good Bible study anyway
Daniel: the ten toes of the clay/iron feet is like the 10 horns in revelation
Daniel: the 10 kings
Daniel: the beast with 7 heads (mountians, kings)
Daniel: most of the 7 kings have already come and gone
ThatHoboRavioli: Revelation basically copied from Daniel
ThatHoboRavioli: And Ezekiel
Daniel: the man of sin is the 8th and is of the 7
Daniel: so some sort of roman
ThatHoboRavioli: Gog from Magog?
ThatHoboRavioli: Which Revelation mistranslates as "Gog and Magog" because Greek sucks
Daniel: he will reveal himself in the rebuilt temple in jerusalem
ThatHoboRavioli: The Dome of the Rock? lel
Daniel: the temple is not yet rebuilt
ThatHoboRavioli: I know Christians side with Israel because they think Israel fulfills prophecy
ThatHoboRavioli: And they want to drive away all the Muslims to purposefully start the apocalypse
Daniel: they are the synagog of satan
ThatHoboRavioli: damn
ThatHoboRavioli: Nazi much?
Daniel: they will bring back animal sacrifice
Daniel: and then the man of sin will put an end to it
Daniel: and at that moment Christ returns
ThatHoboRavioli: Everyone does animal sacrifice
Daniel: in the temple
ThatHoboRavioli: We eat hamburgers because of animal sacrifice
ThatHoboRavioli: ...okay fair enough
Daniel: animal sacrifice for the remission of sins
ThatHoboRavioli: Kosher hot dogs? Sacrifice or having a rabbi bless the beef or something
Daniel: Revelation 3:
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
ThatHoboRavioli: Christians: "we hate Jews unless Muslims rule the holy land in which case we love them now"
Daniel: what will be will be
ThatHoboRavioli: Christians side with Israel instead of Palestine because they want to destroy the Dome of the Rock
ThatHoboRavioli: And build the Third Temple
Daniel: every day it’s closer to being
ThatHoboRavioli: And once that happens, purposefully start the apocalypse
Daniel: false christians do perhaps
ThatHoboRavioli: This is some Da Vinci Code level insanity here
Daniel: we believe that God causes all things; we do not have an opinion on what israel should do
Daniel: every day fear God and warn people to do the same
ThatHoboRavioli: this place is a madhouse
ThatHoboRavioli: i'm out
- Daniel 2:
31 “You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. 32 This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36 “This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. 37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. 39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. 41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”