GoddessUbasti: Is this room ever used?
skraito: Hi all. Hey all.
Daniel: Hi.
GoddessUbasti: Hello!
Daniel: Do you think you believe the Bible?
GoddessUbasti: Believe what about the Bible?
Daniel: The whole thing.
GoddessUbasti: That it's reliable and truly God's communication to those He created? Yes to all of the above.
Daniel: Do you believe God kills people?
GoddessUbasti: God has the right to kill people.
Daniel: Check out http://atruechurch.info/ - see if you find something the Bible says that you disagree with.
GoddessUbasti: Well isn't that quite the website. Is it yours?
Daniel: It's my church's; my website is http://danielpbarron.com/
GoddessUbasti: So any well-known preachers who aren't "false" teachers?
Daniel: Not that I know of.
GoddessUbasti: It seems to me that you must live very anxiously, as it seems you and your church believe that any sort of false belief whatsoever about God leads to eternal damnation. What if there's something you're not right about? i What if there's something you've not thought through yet, or may never, and therefore cannot think "rightly" about it? Are you going to go to Hell?
Daniel: God will show us, or He will destroy us. Everything is His doing regardless.
GoddessUbasti: So then do you not believe in "once saved, always saved?"
Daniel: No. ii
GoddessUbasti: Interesting.
Daniel: We believe that the elect cannot be taken out of God's hand, but there are people who are saved (believe the whole Bible) who are not elect, and will not endure to the end.
GoddessUbasti: How can one be SAVED and yet not ELECT?
Daniel: By believing the Bible. God causes some people to believe it for a time, but not until the end.
GoddessUbasti: Can you give me the verses that point toward your claim?
Daniel: Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
ljrbot: iii Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: 26* _If we sin wilfully..._ He speaks of the sin of wilful apostasy from the known truth; after which, as we can not be baptized again, we can not expect to have that abundant remission of sins, which Christ purchased by his death, applied to our souls in that ample manner as it is in baptism: but we have rather all
Daniel: Romans 11:
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
ljrbot: Romans 11:21 -- For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps also he spare not thee.
GoddessUbasti: Knowledge is not what saves. iv
^Peter^: Jesus blood saves.
GoddessUbasti: If the "John MacArthur is a false teacher" part of your church's website has taken one thing in his study Bible out of context, then logic dictates taking things out of context might be a norm on the website. v
Daniel: What is out of context?
GoddessUbasti: I just looked up 1 John 2:2 vi in his study bible. The whole context is consistent with what the rest of the Bible says about who Jesus died for.
ljrbot: 1 John 2:2 -- And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
GoddessUbasti: Well that's a neat bot. I like it. :)
Daniel: I don't understand your point.
GoddessUbasti: Context always matters. Anything taken out of context creates misunderstanding. And it's not intellectually honest for anyone to do so. http://atruechurch.info/macstudybible.html
^Peter^: Yes but to be specific, what passage, and what context?
GoddessUbasti: Under Part II. Are you also a part of the same church? Is this room made up of people involved in his church?
Daniel: GoddessUbasti, no. I'm the only saved one in here.
GoddessUbasti: That's to be determined.
Daniel: Does MacArthur not teach "limited atonement" ?
GoddessUbasti: A church calling Spurgeon a false teacher. Now that's an amazing claim.
^Peter^: No I am not actually connected with the particular atruechurch, but Christianity exceeds denominational boundaries.
Daniel: The broad way includes many denominations.
GoddessUbasti: ^Peter^, you don't mind that Daniel just said you're not saved? Daniel, does your church have any affiliation with the Westboro Baptist Church?
^Peter^: Haha some people are misguided, and that is life. I claim Christ as my savior, not a unit church.
Daniel: No, and we believe they are not in the truth. http://atruechurch.info/godhatesphelps.html
GoddessUbasti: Do you not regularly attend a church, ^Peter^?
^Peter^: Yes.
GoddessUbasti: Daniel: well, at least there's that.
Daniel: ^Peter^, take a look at our site http://atruechurch.info/ and see if there's something you disagree with.
GoddessUbasti: Yes, you do not attend, or yes, you do attend?
^Peter^: Daniel, I always wonder when people claim to be the "one true."
Daniel: We don't make that claim.
GoddessUbasti: You do make that claim if you believe your church (and any church with the exact same beliefs) are the only ones made up of people going to Heaven...
^Peter^: GoddessUbasti, the question was "Do you not regularly attend a church, ^Peter^?" and I said yes, mistakenly not noticing the negative involved, and the ambiguity. So ... yes I go to Church each Sunday.
Daniel: How can you have different beliefs and be saved? That means you disagree with the Bible.. vii
GoddessUbasti: ^Peter^, yah, I guess I could've asked it better. Thanks. Daniel, narrow indeed is the road to salvation. It's only found through Jesus Christ. What I believe about Jesus Christ is consistent with what the Bible says about Him.
Daniel: There are multiple churches mentioned in the Bible. That doesn't mean those churches disagreed on what scripture is.
^Peter^: Daniel, Paul stressed that many have their own point of view and beliefs, viii but one must have the faith in Jesus, and not worry about the superseded law requirements, but do not hassle people who do say refrain from pork etc.
Daniel: Christ is the Word of God, and you must believe the whole Word of God to be saved (Matthew 4:4 ix)
ljrbot: Matthew 4:4 -- Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.
Daniel: ^Peter^, show me where the Bible says you can disagree on scripture and still be saved.
^Peter^: Daniel, I thought we had been through that previously.
GoddessUbasti: I do believe in the whole Word of God. I don't pick and choose what I think is and is not true about it.
GoddessUbasti: Daniel: Tell me, are you KJV-only?
Daniel: No.
Daniel: So then if you believe it all, you must know that it's not wrong to masturbate gamble smoke drink or do drugs, for example.
GoddessUbasti: Thank goodness you know that website like the back of your hand. :P The Bible indicates plenty why gambling isn't well to do. Nor smoking, drinking, and doing drugs.
Daniel: Check out our articles on those topics. You will find that they are never condemned in the Bible.
^Peter^: Daniel, probably Romans 10 is the most direct answer; Paul spent some time on what is needed for salvation, and what is superficial. Jesus Himself broke the Jewish laws.
GoddessUbasti: https://www.gotquestions.org/gambling-sin.html
Daniel: We are no longer under the law.
GoddessUbasti: I don't need to see the word "gambling" to know that the Bible warns against the concept. Ugh, pretty please stop posting from your church website?
Daniel: Gambling is indeed mentioned in the Bible. x
^Peter^: Shock horror, to heal someone on the Sabbath .... criminal !!!!
Daniel: lol, from your link:
Answer: The Bible does not specifically condemn gambling, betting, or the lottery.
^Peter^: Yes the disciples cast lots ... gambling :)
GoddessUbasti: No, we no longer live under the law, and yet someone with the Holy Spirit in them does not desire to live a life that is worldly. The vices are worldly behaviors. Well, so much for a friendly Christian room. I wanted encouragement, not to argue whether I'm saved or not. Wowza. ^Peter^, they cast lots for one purpose, and then once the Holy Spirit descended on them on the Day of Pentecost, lots were no longer used.
Daniel: Anything could be "worldly" .. it depends on why you are doing it.
GoddessUbasti: The Holy Spirit is to guide us on God's will, not a roll of the dice. Daniel, what is a pure motive for gambling? smoking? drinking? etc? Those are SELFISH choices. Period.
^Peter^: GoddessUbasti, yes I just said that as a failed attempt at humor.
GoddessUbasti: Oh, well... I don't know your humor yet.
Daniel: GoddessUbasti, not necessarily. It's not wrong to do something for the enjoyment of it. I like to play poker, for example. I don't do it to get rich or because I covet other people's money.
GoddessUbasti: Daniel, what godly, Christ-like motive would allow for someone to gamble, smoke, drink, do drugs?
Daniel: I don't know, the same motive that would allow for dancing, sky diving, or roller skating.
^Peter^: Daniel, yes and we do much in sensible moderation, and remember that the body is the temple of the Holy spirit, and so watch diet, gluttony, and health problems like smoking.
GoddessUbasti: Yes, as Peter said.
Daniel: By the way, Christ manufactured and distributed alcohol, and commanded us to remember His death by drinking wine.
GoddessUbasti: How often do you gamble, Daniel? I drink VERY moderately. I'm not against alcohol. I'm against its abuse.
Daniel: Not as often as I'd like to. Not any good poker games where I live.
GoddessUbasti: Well good, then thank goodness you're not able to gamble more.
Daniel: Well obviously I'm talking about moderation. Anything can be wrong if you are addicted to abuse of it.
GoddessUbasti: Correct.
^Peter^: Daniel, yes there is nothing wrong with alcohol, but there is a lot wrong with excessive gluttony and drunkenness.
Daniel: My claim is not that you can do these things to excess.
GoddessUbasti: Even a little gluttony and drunkenness isn't well to do...
Daniel: My claim is that they are not inherently wrong to do, and that a believer can do them.
GoddessUbasti: Would you drink around someone who has a drinking problem?
Daniel: If it was offending them, I'd abstain around them. If it was a believer, I'd exhort them to not have a drinking problem, because that means they aren't saved.
GoddessUbasti: Offending? Causing them to want to drink would be the issue. What? You think struggling with an addiction means someone can't be saved?
Daniel: They can be saved, but if they are addicted to something, they aren't saved.
GoddessUbasti: You're quite the judgmental sort.
Daniel: Judging is believing.
GoddessUbasti: lol That website... Oy.
^Peter^: Daniel, judge ye not lest ye fall into temptation. God is the Judge of Salvation not you or I.
Daniel: John 7:
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
ljrbot: John 7:24 -- Judge not according to the appearance: but judge just judgment.
^Peter^: Are all men perfect? No all sin. Why otherwise are we instructed to confess.
GoddessUbasti: Daniel, I grew up in a Christian family believing I was saved. I had someone that God sent into my life that was the only person to ever tell me he didn't believe I was saved. I argued with him about it at first, but then the truth of what he was saying convinced me. I didn't fit the criteria of a saved person. Once I came to that realization, I didn't immediately turn my life over to God, sadly. It took something breaking me in order for me to turn to Him. But once that happened, and I told God that I wanted His will for my life, my life changed. Old desires that had taken over my life were GONE. I'm truly a new creation. The old has gone, the new has come. And so you can tell me all that you want, but I know the change that happened in me. You do not.
Daniel: Well apparently you haven't turned from your old self yet, because there are false doctrines that you still believe.
GoddessUbasti: Pearl before swine moment. xi Bummer. Okay, Daniel. Thanks for sharing your views. I've no reason to argue anymore on it. You don't know my heart. Only God does.
Daniel: http://danielpbarron.com/2019/for-out-of-the-abundance-of-the-heart-his-mouth-speaks/
Matthew 12:
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
ljrbot: Matthew 12:34 -- O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
GoddessUbasti: You seem prideful. You may want to talk to God about that.
^Peter^: Daniel, I did read the link about your affiliation, and was disappointed that such a general refutation was given to all denominations, yet it failed to observe that it is not the denomination as such, it is the individual who happens to find truth in say Protestantism. xii The truth is Christ.
GoddessUbasti: Your church, and people drawn to your church, appear to enjoy divisiveness and controversy. Your websites are devoted to it.
Daniel: Matthew 10:
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’
ljrbot: Matthew 10:34 -- Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.
^Peter^: Yes "The sword of the spirit" but Jesus here is saying that he came not as a Jewish leader to get rid of the Romans, but He actually came to become the propitiation for our sin. The Jews expected a very different result from prophesy, and actually caused his crucifixion, which was part of the great plan.
^Peter^: Also Jas_5:
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. xiii
We are not the Judge of others Salvation (unless they reject Jesus as Saviour) and some are weak, and have sins which we are aware, but God will be the Judge, and certainly not you or I.
Daniel: You aren't my brother.
GoddessUbasti: I don't know Peter's heart, but he seems to get it. So, he's my brother in Christ. :) I call him brother in good faith.
^Peter^: Daniel, I am in Christs hand. Where are you?
Daniel: I'm in His hand; you're not.
GoddessUbasti: I feel bad for you, Daniel.
^Peter^: Daniel, see you did not observe the direct Scripture about judgementalism. Do seriously consider your position.
Daniel: It's not wrong to judge.
^Peter^: Daniel, if you study it carefully, it is right to make many judgments, but God is the judge of all. He alone can make the statement you blissfully state.
GoddessUbasti: True, we can judge people who call themselves saved. But you go beyond. Yes, he does quite freely throw out who is and is not saved, doesn't he. Very arrogant.
Daniel: If I can't judge who is saved or not, how can I obey Matthew 7:6?
GoddessUbasti: Why didn't the bot work? Matthew 7:6
ljrbot: Matthew 7:6 -- Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.
GoddessUbasti: Ah, cuz you had an extra space.
^Peter^: Daniel, that is such a childish and malicious retort. Go pray, and carefully consider what you say.
GoddessUbasti: Yes, he's a very prideful man. It's sad.
Daniel: The proud are not saved, xiv are you judging my salvation??
^Peter^: Daniel, I did not ever judge your salvation, but I do judge your actions.
GoddessUbasti: Nope. Only God can ultimately judge your heart. Same with mine.
Daniel: Psalm 119:113 xv
GoddessUbasti: What a pleasant experience Daniel has made for me in this room. :-|
Daniel: If it's any encouragement to you, I won't bother you any further now that I have warned you.
GoddessUbasti: Yah, it seems like you've said your peace.
^Peter^: haha. The psalmist is just saying that he is careful, and judges what he says. (as we all should) put the mind into gear before opening the mouth.
GoddessUbasti: ^Peter^, I'm thinking that isn't the first or last verse Mr. Daniel P. Barron has misinterpreted.
Daniel: Are you not being double-minded when you say it's wrong to judge, but then also say it's not wrong to judge? Do my actions not inform you of my salvation? (Matthew 7:20 xvi)
^Peter^: Daniel, just read that slowly and see what is being said.
GoddessUbasti: Judging heathens for not acting like the saved is the issue. Not judging those who claim to be saved. However, as we said above, you take it too far. You've gotten mired in really strict interpretations which aren't necessarily accurate. I just don't see it as helpful for furthering God's Kingdom at all.
^Peter^ off for Dinner.
GoddessUbasti: Take care, Peter.
Daniel: The Bible tells us that there will be people who claim to believe but don't (Mark 13:22 xvii)
ljrbot: Mark 13:22 -- For there will rise up false Christs and false prophets: and they shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce (if it were possible) even the elect.
GoddessUbasti: Daniel, indeed.
Darwin: Then when shown from the Word of God we will heed. As it is written, "He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” (John 8:47)
And,
"The ear that hears the rebukes of life
Will abide among the wise.
32 He who disdains instruction despises his own soul,
But he who heeds rebuke gets understanding." (Proverbs 15:31-32)
Darwin: The answer actually is "Yes and no," which you ended up saying (basically), but I wonder if he caught it.
- ljrbot is some Catholic Bible bot that sometimes tacks on extra commentary. ^
Darwin: ". . . God our Savior, who desires all men to be SAVED and to come to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7)
Darwin: The "out of context" wasn't proven, just claimed (typically). Looks like he is a limited atoner as MacArthur, and if so, then of course he would reject (as MacArthur) the explicit truth of 1 John 2:2, showing the propitiation is for "the whole world," not just the elect.
- 1 John 2:
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Darwin: It would have been good to add that they reject the narrow way well described in 1 John 4:6. Any group of true believers can and say, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:6)
Darwin: This a common argument, because they don't understand that when Paul is talking about personal conscience, there's room for differences (e.g. Roman's 14). But, when dealing with doctrine, it's a matter of being in the faith or not (Galatians 4:10-11; 1 Timothy 4:1-5), on the VERY same issues (day observation, food).
- Matthew 4:
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
Darwin: I have never found it in the sense in which it is used for like Casinos or race tracks in which bets are made to win jackpots of money.
Which is usually what people mean in conversations like this.
- Matthew 7:
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Darwin: I think it would have been good to mention that Protestantism is a false religion. It might help them see why you are calling them lost.
- James 5:
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!
- Proverbs 16:
5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord;
Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. - Psalm 119:
113 I hate the double-minded,
But I love Your law. - Matthew 7:
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
- Mark 13:
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
[...] log is a sort of continuation of a previous article. The following took place on another day, and has been broken up into many articles. The first in [...]