one_forall: i Omni-benevolent ii does not apply to Abrahamic God. It seem many here and other [forums] make the mistake that Abrahamic religion has an omni-benevolent God. Both Judaism and Islam based on their practitioners and scripture reject this notion. The only religion that advocates omni-benevolent is certain denomination of Christianity. Is it fair asset/claim Abrahamic religion has an omni-benevolent God if only a denomination of Christianity advocates it, while the rest reject this.
Do you agree or disagree that omni-benevolent should not be attributed to Abrahamic God as a whole.
Daniel: God is love according to the Bible. You do not know what love is because you do not know God. See also, How Can A God Of Love Send People To Hell? And The Quran: The Muslim Book Of The False Religion Of Islam.
one_forall:
God is love according to the Bible.
How is this related to the op or are you preaching?
You do not know what love is because you do not know God.
So you say? why should I take your word for it I can easily make the same claim that you don’t understand love nor God.
See also, How Can A God Of Love Send People To Hell? And The Quran: The Muslim Book Of The False Religion Of Islam.
So your basically preaching about how your religion is true and Islam is wrong, which by the way has nothing to do with the topic.
Note: This topic isn’t debate about which religion is true or false.
Daniel: You are posing a question that is only answered in the Bible. (Colossians 2:8 iii)
one_forall: You most likely didn’t read the post. Abrahamic God is not only represented in the Bible. The Abrahamic composes of the three religion(Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and their share ideology. The argument presented was that omni-benevolent is not shared among the three religion, so it shouldn’t be consider as part of Abrahamic God attribute(since its not shared across).
Daniel: Islam and man made Judaism each have a false god who is not the God of the Bible. Both of these false religions lead many to hell. The God of the Bible is "omni-benevolent" despite what other false religions say about Him.
one_forall: It seems your unable to understand the topic and keep calling other religion false, you do understand the same can be done with your religion.
Ex. Christianity is man made religion worshiping a false god who is not the God of Quran. Follower of the false religion(Christianity) will lead many of them to Islamic hell.
Daniel: The Quran contradicts itself. It says that the Bible is true and yet goes against the Bible. And then muslims say the Bible was true but now it isn't, which is to say God doesn't preserve His word.
one_forall: As it seem, it’s difficult for you to understand a simple topic(referring to this op) based on that alone I can understand why you think Quran has a contradiction. Your free to think Quran has contradiction.
Quran being false doesn’t change the statement made earlier that Christianity is man made religion.
Daniel: God is a man.
one_forall: That link doesn’t prove that Christianity isn’t man made religion. You might want look into Hindu gods, since their god comes in form of a man many times not just once.
linkup90: i
The Quran: The Muslim Book Of The False Religion Of Islam.
Alright let's see what you got.
In other words, the Quran pronounces the Jewish Scriptures and the gospel of Jesus Christ as truth from Allah
Alright "as truth" present tense.
It was We [Allah] who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. (S.5, A.44)
Okay, it says "was" as in past tense. Yeah I'm done, what a joke.
Daniel: So then God doesn't preserve His word? The word of God can be true one day and false the next?
linkup90: Preserved it for mankind in the Quran as Islam was sent to mankind. Didn't preserve it in the Bible/Torah as they weren't sent to mankind, just their respective people and it was left for those people to take care of it as it was meant for them. Basically what about the prophets that came with books before Jesus? Does God not preserve his word?It was meant for those people. Whenever a people left worshipping the one true God another prophet was sent to remind them, hence Jesus coming to remind the Jewish tribes. Hence Muhammad coming to remind the world and rest of mankind in a book specially preserved by the one True God.
Daniel: How then can anyone be sure that the pattern is now done? That there won't need to be another revelation in the future? You can say that this time it's finished, but the next revelation can simply claim that the last one was similarly altered.
Compare with Christianity, which claims that the words of the prophets that came before were true and still are true! That God is not a liar, and does indeed preserve His word. Not just at the end, but all throughout. Matthew 4:
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
linkup90:
How then can anyone be sure that the pattern is now done? That there won't need to be another revelation in the future? You can say that this time it's finished, but the next revelation can simply claim that the last one was similarly altered.
Unlike previous scripture it's abundantly clear this one is sent to mankind and specifically preserved by God, not man. There is no prophecy of a new prophet unlike previous scripture. It says it's the last for mankind unlike previous scripture. It's interpretation is also preserved allowing it to have flexibility in it's application across people and time while keeping the understanding intact. There is tons more that will make a person sure.
Compare with Christianity, which claims that the words of the prophets that came before were true and still are true!
Original true sure, Quran says the same thing, but still true as in still the same as the day it was revealed? Nope.
That God is not a liar, and does indeed preserve His word.
Then where are those books now? Heck where is the original Bible? Why is the first full.mamuscript some 350 years after Jesus? That doesn't sound like preservation at all. Same goes for the Torah, where is the original at?
Matthew 4
You are going to have to bring in more context as I don't see how that verse supports your claim.
Daniel: You seem to have missed the point. The next revelation will simply claim that the last one was not preserved right; that it was altered to say it was the last one. Much like how your current revelation says that the Bible has been altered to say Christ is God.
The Bible is indeed the same today as it was yesterday. (Hebrews 13:8 iv) Your claim that it has been altered can only be justified by extra-biblical history. This is the same route employed by the Catholics to justify their destructive heresies. We do not need "original manuscripts" because everyone knows the Bible is true, but they suppress this truth. (Romans 1:18 v)
Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God includes the scripture that you falsely claim has not been preserved.
linkup90:
You seem to have missed the point. The next revelation will simply claim that the last one was not preserved right; that it was altered to say it was the last one. Much like how your current revelation says that the Bible has been altered to say Christ is God.
The next revelation would have to explain why God failed with the only scripture God specifically saying he would preserve it himself. It's going to be a tall order to logic that one as it's not saying fallible men failed, it's saying God made a mistake. The Quran doesn't have that issue as no such promise exists where Jesus says he himself is going to preserve the Gospel he preached. BTW the Quran doesn't specifically say the Bible was altered to say Christ is God, the term Bible never shows up in the Quran. It's claims is more general against past scripture and the Gospel and Torah.
The Bible is indeed the same today as it was yesterday. (Hebrews 13:8)
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." The verse doesn't say Bible, it says Jesus Christ.
Your claim that it has been altered can only be justified by extra-biblical history.
Which strengthens the argument so what's the issue?
We do not need "original manuscripts"
Yes you do. Matthew 5:18 vi "not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law" yet you have no clue of that without originals. You need some way to confirm it's all accurate yet can't do that with Greek manuscripts. Certainly having the originals would help, but a strong oral history would work or even just a consistent book without a bunch of contradictory stuff in it. How can you trust these accounts when in one Gospel it's nobody saw the resurrection while in another it's these many women saw it while yet another says it was a different amount of women who saw it.
Daniel: Christ is the Bible. (John 1:1 vii) Matthew 5:18 isn't a command; it's a fact. Nothing will be lost or added, regardless of what men do. All of the gospels are correct. There is no contradiction.
You're twisting things to sound like there is a difference between men making an effort to preserve scripture and God actually preserving it. God causes all things, (Romans 11:36 viii) including causing men to make such an effort. God causes it to be preserved despite whatever He causes men to do. He also causes false prophets like yours to deceive you into worshiping a false god. (Ezekiel 14:9 ix)
linkup90:
Christ is the Bible. (John 1:1)
Christ would be the Gospel, which one? Who knows. Unless you are claiming he wrote all the gospels himself even if we were to take John 1:1 at face value it doesn't make sense to say he is the Bible when several of Paul's injunctions went against Christ own words making Christ a contradictory Bible that doesn't know the future and can't stop people like Paul from challenging the law he brought to the Jews.
Beside that the most important question is why do you trust any part of the Bible? It's not in the original language so John 1:1 could mean all kinds of things originally, but no one can know for sure until a link is made.
All of the gospels are correct. There is no contradiction.
...okay, now prove it and start with the mistakes made during claims of resurrection.
You're twisting things to sound like there is a difference between men making an effort to preserve scripture and God actually preserving it. God causes all things, (Romans 11:36) including causing men to make such an effort. God causes it to be preserved despite whatever He causes men to do. He also causes false prophets like yours to deceive you into worshiping a false god. (Ezekiel 14:9)
God preserving it means it will be preserved to 100 percent the way God wanted. Man preserving will inevitably fail at it, that's the difference and another reason why all past scriptures have all kinds of errors and contradictions.
Daniel:
it doesn't make sense to say he is the Bible when several of Paul's injunctions went against Christ own words
Which ones?
why do you trust any part of the Bible? It's not in the original language
We at A True Church go by the original Hebrew Greek and Aramaic.
prove it and start with the mistakes made during claims of resurrection.
You prove there's a contradiction. I don't see one.
linkup90: If you don't believe there are any contradictions then why in one does it claim God's immortal then in another claim he came in the form of a man and died? Why does Jesus curse those taking pig and Paul claims it's not a big deal so whatever? Like I said, more importantly than that is you can't actual check any of this as the translations you have are not original language and manuscripts are hundreds of years later.
We at A True Church go by the original Hebrew Greek and Aramaic.
There is no New Testament manuscript in Hebrew or Aramaic.
Also thanks for letting me know the website you linked to was yours. Just goes to show some Christians do go around spreading nonsense about the Quran yet don't even know Arabic.
Daniel: Show me these verses that contradict each other. The new testament is in Greek. The Old is in Hebrew and Aramaic.
linkup90: Timothy 6:16 x "who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen."
Matthew 27:50 xi "And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit."
The new testament is in Greek. The Old is in Hebrew and Aramaic.
There you go, no New Testament in the original language. Why do you trust it?
Daniel: What do you mean? The original language is Greek.
How is that a contradiction? Christ is God who is from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 41:13 xii) and He became mortal flesh (John 1:14 xiii) to die for the whole world. (1 Timothy 2:6 xiv)
linkup90:
What do you mean? The original language is Greek.
Jesus preached Greek to non-greeks and peasants who only knew Aramaic? Sure thing, the copies you have are not original or else if they are "original" then we can conclude nothing of the Gospel Jesus preached is left.
everlasting
Is not immortal, everlasting just means lasting forever and immortal means living forever or never dying so that verse doesn't help you.
"who is alone immortal"
can't
become mortal flesh to die
or else is not immortal. There is also the issue that God became something else taking on flesh hence changing by becoming human
Numbers 23:19 xv states that
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Malachi 3:6 xvi
For [a]I, the Lord, do not change;
Contradictions left and right because man played around with the Gospels, lost chunks of it, added in stuff, and did a bad job preserving it.
Daniel: The original scripture is Greek. God can make sure it is accurate to what took place, regardless of what languages were spoken.
God is not a lying mortal man:
Mortal men both lie and repent (Psalm 116:11; Job 42:6). They say things and do not hold to their word. Note the wording here, "God is not a man that He should lie." (Numbers 23:19), and "For He is not a man, that He should relent." (1 Samuel 15:29). God is being compared to mortal sinful men who act in ways that He does not.
Everlasting to everlasting indeed means that He is immortal. In fact, even His being slain is from everlasting. (Revelation 13:8 xvii) So no, He didn't change.
anathemas: Just so ya know, this person is part of a cult and posts these conversations, including your username, on his site. "A true church" isn't the greatest search term, and some of the articles contain their username/full name, so I don't want to the accused of doxxing them. But they're basically a mini Westboro Baptist Church.
Daniel: Yes, I publish interesting conversations on my blog. Since when is publishing the name someone uses to chat online considered doxxing? Most of these conversations take place in public in the first place. Does that mean the people doxxed themselves initially?
- Identifies as "Muslim." ^ ^
Omnibenevolence (from Latin omni- meaning "all", bene- meaning "good" and volens meaning "willing") is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "unlimited or infinite benevolence".
- Colossians 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
- Hebrews 13:
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
- Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
- Matthew 5:
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
- John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
- Romans 11:
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
- Ezekiel 14:
9 “And if the prophet is induced to speak anything, I the Lord have induced that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel.
- 1 Timothy 6:
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
- Matthew 27:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
- Psalm 41:
13 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel
From everlasting to everlasting!
Amen and Amen. - John 1:
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
- 1 Timothy 2:
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
- Numbers 23:
19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? - Malachi 3:
6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. - Revelation 13:
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.