Daniel P. Barron

Their sound has gone out to all the earth.

Sunday, August 9, 2020 

Someone asked a series of questions leading to a disagreement over the sufficiency of nature for salvation.


Your website gives a clear rejection of a whole list of denominations and people. What is, if any, your denomination?

We aren't part of any denomination; none of the ones that would have any of the churches with which we disagree.


You rejected almost every Christian denomination besides Methodist, Baptist, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons.

We reject them as well. i


You reject Catholicism but you are not Protestants or Evangelicals. Is it right to say this is a non denominational doctrinal view?

Sure. But we don't necessarily agree with other "non denominational" churches.


Does your church believe you have the right doctrine like everyone else?

We believe we have the right doctrine, unlike everyone else.


Do you believe you could be wrong on something?

Yes, we have been wrong in the past, and we may be wrong again.


How can you be wrong in some areas and yet say you're the right way?

Because we aren't wrong over many things; we repent of the wrong things and no longer teach them.


How do you know you're wrong?

If we can find Scripture that goes against what we believe. ii


I see you believe a man or women can be saved by nature alone? You give Romans 1 as its doctrine position. Also Romans 10.

First of all, Scripture teaches no such concept (Proverbs 30:5-6). You will not find a single verse that teaches the light of nature and the works of creation are not sufficient to give that knowledge which is necessary unto salvation. Secondly, Paul taught it is sufficient. iii

Yes, all people have heard of the Gospel, and not only those who have been told of it by men.


Do you believe faith comes from hearing of the Word? I believe creation points to God and if a person starts to see God, he will deliver someone to them to preach the Gospel so it is heard.

Scripture does not say that someone will or must be "delivered" to a new believer. It says that you do not need someone else to teach you. iv


These people don't have the anointing already because they must be saved to have the anointing. v

They do not need another believer in order to be saved -- that is, they can be saved alone.


But you haven't had a verse that goes against Paul's teaching in Romans 10:17. vi

We cite this same passage in favor of our argument that nature is sufficient to be taught the Word of God. Romans 10 goes on to say the gospel "has gone out to all the earth." vii


Paul says faith comes from hearing of the Word of God.

Where does He say you may only hear it from people?


How do you hear something?

With your ears, usually.


A sound must be produced.

There is also seeing, and it is possible to hear and see things in the mind.


Paul's context is people who are speaking the Word.

It says that the word will be heard by all, and the word is indeed heard by all. And yet there are people who have supposedly not been visited by missionaries. These people too have heard the word.


They have seen creation.

This is sufficient to believe.


But as do we here in the USA people see creation but don't know they need to be saved.

Who wants to be saved? Nobody. viii There is no difference between Americans and island savages. ix


If creation is enough for salvation, what's the point of the cross?

Creation is enough to know the salvation of Christ who died.


Looking at a tree doesn't teach them they need saving.

If God has chosen someone to be saved, they will believe no matter where they are. x Most who claim to believe do not actually believe. xi This is because they weren't chosen.


In Matthew 7, Jesus goes on and continues to speak to everyone and says go and do what I have said. Like Paul and the Prophets did to other nations. Preaching the Gospel. No where in the New Testament is there any conversion or hint of it by nature alone. Nature points to a God.

It points to the true God and all that is needed to be known in order to be saved. xii The heavens and all creation tell the truth of the Gospel. Was Abraham not saved? xiii It says the gospel was preached to him, and the thing that was preached was "in you all the nations shall be blessed." Abraham was saved because he believed the gospel which is "in you all the nations shall be blessed." It doesn't say if he was aware of the death of Christ. It simply says he was saved for believing that "in him all the nations shall be blessed."


The death of Christ didn't happen yet.

The death of Christ has always been. xiv


The revelation and the reveal of the Messiah didn't happen yet.

It doesn't matter if it happened yet or not. Abraham was saved on faith in God alone. xv Scripture doesn't say Abraham was saved specifically for knowledge of the death of Christ. Yet you say that this specific knowledge is required in order to be saved. The things of creation are sufficient to tell a person enough for them to believe and be saved, and such a person will also consent to wholesome words xvi when shown what Scripture says on the things they didn't specifically hear from nature.


The point of Christ's death is for the new covenant and the forgiving of sins for the whole world. People do not know they are in sin and are blinded by it. Creation points to the true God, but salvation and faith comes by knowing the knowledge of Christ or the Word. Abraham was preached too through the burning bush, and his faith justified him because he heard the message from the Lord.

The burning bush was with Moses. xvii Whether or not people realize they are in sin, they may only be saved if God causes them to be saved. God can cause someone to be saved who has never met another person in their life. All that person needs to do is believe in God. If this person later meets a fellow believer, the two will agree on what Scripture says, even if one of them has never actually read any of Scripture.

  1. Links added above. ^
  2. Acts 17:

    11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

     ^

  3. Quoting Westminster Confession of Faith: An Example of False Christianity^
  4. 1 John 2:

    27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

     ^

  5. Citing (ESV) 1 John 2:

    20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.

     ^

  6. Citing (ESV) Romans 10:

    17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

     ^

  7. Romans 10:

    18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

    “Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
    And their words to the ends of the world.”

     ^

  8. Romans 3:

    11 There is none who understands;
    There is none who seeks after God.

     ^

  9. 1 Corinthians 12:

    13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

     ^

  10. John 15:

    16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

     ^

  11. Matthew 7:

    13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

     ^

  12. Romans 1:

    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

     ^

  13. Galatians 3:

    8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

     ^

  14. Revelation 13:

    8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

     ^

  15. Romans 4:

    3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

     ^

  16. 1 Timothy 6:

    3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,

     ^

  17. Exodus 3:

    1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

     ^

One Response

  1. [...] If you were to see a genuine supernatural event, you would not believe in God unless He has chosen you to be saved. I am not interested in getting into a logical discussion where the terms are that I cannot rely on Scripture. [...]